NFOA MEMBERS FORUM
General Categories => Laws and Legislation => Topic started by: Susie71 on October 20, 2013, 06:44:30 PM
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I just want to know what the laws are regarding a persons right to carry a handgun outside of their home for a brief time, if they don't have a Concealed Carry Permit? If they can't legally conceal it, doesn't it HAVE to be visible?
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Some of it depends on where you are when you go outside...
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Downstairs at the apartment to show the neighbor/friend something about it.
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Where are you located?
I ask because it depends on the city. Generally there are no laws prohibiting it. If you do not have a CHP, then it must be visible.
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Lincoln. I ended up with a disturbing the peace ticket, because apparently I/it frightened the neighbors. I can understand that if I was waving it around and acting crazy, but I wasn't.
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No specific law against it, but Disturbing the Peace is when you are "Exhibiting threatening or violent conduct" toward somebody (among other things). Long story short, depends on the circumstances of the event.
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I really wasn't doing anything regarding the people who called. I took it straight downstairs. I was talking with my neighbor about it, not them. I didn't say or do anything that involved them. All I can say is that I have no intention of taking this sitting down. I refuse to just accept this charge. I will not say that I'm guilty, because I'm not.
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People just tend to freak out these days, over things that they should just stay out of altogether.
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Sounds like you need to be talking to a lawyer. I would not post any more on here regarding this without legal counsel.
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Okay. Thank you.
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Sounds like you need to be talking to a lawyer. I would not post any more on here regarding this without legal counsel.
+100
Also, no posting about this situation on any social media what so ever! Remember, anything you say or do can (WILL) be used against you...
Good luck! We hope that it works out in your (our) favor! I say our because we as gun owners are a family, albeit disfuntional at times, but a family camaraderie none-the-less...
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Lincoln. I ended up with a disturbing the peace ticket, because apparently I/it frightened the neighbors. I can understand that if I was waving it around and acting crazy, but I wasn't.
If it got a dispatch call, that is enough to get a disturbing the peace ticket, in many cases.
If you were walking around your apartment complex, showing other tenants your gun, show n tell, I could see how no good could come of that.
I would erase your posts, get a good gun lawyer, and remember this a lesson learned.
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If it got a dispatch call, that is enough to get a disturbing the peace ticket, in many cases.
No. Not even close.
If you were walking around your apartment complex, showing other tenants your gun, show n tell, I could see how no good could come of that.
That rather depends on if they asked to see it in the first place. If, on the other hand, a number of people see you walking past them with a gun in your hand, that is going to be more problematic.
I would erase your posts, get a good gun lawyer, and remember this a lesson learned.
I would agree with the lawyer part. Erasing the posts? Not really necessary yet, but I certainly wouldn't say any more about this until the court case is over. Don't give more details, don't talk about what happened any more---and get yourself a lawyer.
As for "lesson learned" -- I'd suggest that the next time you take a gun to show someone, leave it in its case until you reach the person.
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As for "lesson learned" -- I'd suggest that the next time you take a gun to show someone, leave it in its case until you reach the person.
I think Susie was concerned that doing so would be "carrying a concealed handgun" and did not want to break the law by doing so. Open carry is our only recourse when a valid CHP is not in one's possession
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I think Susie was concerned that doing so would be "carrying a concealed handgun" and did not want to break the law by doing so. Open carry is our only recourse when a valid CHP is not in one's possession
Having an unloaded firearm in a case when going from one place where it is legal to another where it is legal is not carrying a concealed weapon---because if it is, everyone walking into a gun shop without a CCW permit would be in violation of the law.
Or into any gun range, public or private. Or taking it to a gun show. Or giving it to someone as a present. Or taking it from Cabelas where you bought it. Or selling it to someone else, where they walk off with it.
Transporting a cased, unloaded firearm from one place where you may legally have it to another place where you may legally have it, is legal.
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So does anyone know a good firearm attorney?
Perhaps we could recommend them to this person.
Greg58
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Transporting a cased, unloaded firearm from one place where you may legally have it to another place where you may legally have it, is legal.
Open carry is legal and yet here we are... I have no reason to believe that Lincoln police would not charge a person with the crime of carrying a concealed handgun without a permit if it suited their purposes, just as they would trump up false charges of disturbing the peace for legal open carry.
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So does anyone know a good firearms attorney?
I've pursued this question with three different attorneys who are firearms owners/users/etc. [In order to advise my concealed carry classes.]
They all said, "James Martin Davis." Without hesitation. Two from Omaha; one from Lincoln.
Other posters to this Forum have suggested that a Forum list be established of Nebraska attorneys who are competent and experienced in defending firearms cases.
A Very Good Idea That We Have Not Yet Implemented.
sfg
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Open carry is legal and yet here we are... I have no reason to believe that Lincoln police would not charge a person with the crime of carrying a concealed handgun without a permit if it suited their purposes, just as they would trump up false charges of disturbing the peace for legal open carry.
I think---that those are pretty strong statements.
I also think that we don't know enough about this situation to comment much. (And Susie, don't reply to this with details, because you do NOT want to say anything unless your lawyer says it is okay---which he probably won't.)
If a person walks by others with a firearm in a holster, openly carrying, that is a significantly different situation than if a person walks by others carrying a gun in a firing grip. Yes? Technically both are open carry---and yet, one is something that could justifiably concern people who saw it, depending on the surrounding circumstances.
"just as they would trump up false charges of disturbing the peace for legal open carry" ---do we have any information or knowledge of prior occurrences of this happening?
Carrying a cased, unloaded firearm specifically from one place to another isn't CCW. Do you know of anyone in Nebraska who has been cited for illegal concealed carry for something like that?
While I'm personally not particularly thrilled with the attitude of LPD's admin folks regarding legal firearms (similarly with OPD), this is separate from making statements like the above---unless you know of cases where this has actually happened that I don't know about?
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By the way, Gary: If you are going to send me personal messages, don't block me from answering you in PM. If you ARE going to block answers in PM, then don't bother sending me harassing messages in the first place.
I'll just reply here:
Do me a favor, and argue with someone else.
Then stop saying things like this:
"If it got a dispatch call, that is enough to get a disturbing the peace ticket, in many cases."
...which is completely untrue.
Or do you have ANY support for that statement?
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"just as they would trump up false charges of disturbing the peace for legal open carry" ---do we have any information or knowledge of prior occurrences of this happening?
There have been other people that have had similar charges and issues that have contacted the Board for help. They have not publicly made statements so we will not publicize their issues, something I am certain you would agree with. But this is not a one of case in Lincoln, I wish it was.
Carrying a cased, unloaded firearm specifically from one place to another isn't CCW. Do you know of anyone in Nebraska who has been cited for illegal concealed carry for something like that?
In Lincoln there have been several strange things charged for firearms "violations" and some even more difficult laws on the books. While Dan's comment may be an exaggeration it does sum up the frustration many have with Lincoln's firearms Ordinances and LPD.
The NFOA Board has had separate contact with "Suzie" and we have recommended a local attorney to her that may be able to assist her. Not every case dealing with firearms is necessarily a "Firearms" case, just so the person can have access to an attorney that is friendly to the issue of firearms they could be alright depending upon the issue. An example of one that was not friendly (I can not disclose the name) told a client to plead guilty because it was a gun issue he had to be guilty... The NFOA helped him find better representation and push the issue and charges were dropped. This person went from jail time to not even needing to appear in court, by getting representation that was not biased against firearms.
Lots of issues that come into choosing an attorney, finding the right one for what you are dealing with today can be difficult. I don't want a divorce attorney representing me on a criminal matter, but don't need to spend JMD money to draw up a revocable trust either.
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An old friend of mine was charged with terroristic threats for standing in his own home with a partially disassembled AR15 when his neighbor started to beat down his front door with a hammer. Of course the charges were dropped...right- no harm no foul??? The rifle was never returned until he sued LPD
Ask Gunscribe about the history of LPD and false charges involving open carry. He had several pow wows with former Chief Cassady about it and was guaranteed that the officers would be retrained, and no one would be charged with "disturbing the peace " for simple open carry of a firearm.
So, it would be no surprise to me to see this charge for legal acts of open carry..the perp must have done something wrong ... right?
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If you don't stand up for your rights they WILL be taken away from you. Stuff like this needs to be fought when it occurs. Don't just plead guilty.
An old friend of mine was charged with terroristic threats for standing in his own home with a partially disassembled AR15 when his neighbor started to beat down his front door with a hammer. Of course the charges were dropped...right- no harm no foul??? The rifle was never returned until he sued LPD
Ask Gunscribe about the history of LPD and false charges involving open carry. He had several pow wows with former Chief Cassady about it and was guaranteed that the officers would be retrained, and no one would be charged with "disturbing the peace " for simple open carry of a firearm.
So, it would be no surprise to me to see this charge for legal acts of open carry..the perp must have done something wrong ... right?
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I open carry in Lincoln all the time and haven't run into any issues. From what I've heard from LPD, they are frequently called when a firearm is spotted, but won't issue citations unless someone is threatening others or brandishing (or carrying in an area that is prohibited). I don't have personal experience with a disturbing the peace citation (knock on wood)...but we all should fight for our rights so we don't lose them.
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An old friend of mine was charged with terroristic threats for standing in his own home with a partially disassembled AR15 when his neighbor started to beat down his front door with a hammer. Of course the charges were dropped...right- no harm no foul??? The rifle was never returned until he sued LPD
Ask Gunscribe about the history of LPD and false charges involving open carry. He had several pow wows with former Chief Cassady about it and was guaranteed that the officers would be retrained, and no one would be charged with "disturbing the peace " for simple open carry of a firearm.
Sounds to me like something where we should (if the specific people would give permission) collect a series of these stories where people were cited for something that was later dropped because it was STUPID---and talk to a reporter for a story to be put into print.
If there is a series of these things, and complaining to the police department is useless (which I'm sure it would be), then perhaps shedding a little light on the systemic issue might make something change.
If all we do to fight this is complain and have the police not respond, that isn't helping. (And considering Cassidy, I'm pretty sure that we can agree that no matter what he says, he won't actually change anything unless forced.) In addition, if the rest of us don't know it is happening, we can't help out either.
Has the board heard enough stories, and have enough contact information, to possibly talk people into telling their specific stories to a reporter?
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That would be a good approach.
I don't have much contact information for prior inquiries. A lot of times the board will receive inquiries and after providing some information and recommendation to seek a good attorney we don't hear back. Other times an ongoing conversation will take place with one or more board members.
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Sounds to me like something where we should (if the specific people would give permission) collect a series of these stories where people were cited for something that was later dropped because it was STUPID---and talk to a reporter for a story to be put into print.
I'll see if my friend is still around the Valentine area, that is where he escaped to back then and after this incident he left the big city for good.
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What are you talking about? Casady is a swell guy... I met him once... :)
http://www.engineering.unl.edu/collegeheadlines/2009/collegeheadlines1-09-09.shtml (http://www.engineering.unl.edu/collegeheadlines/2009/collegeheadlines1-09-09.shtml)
Only thing is they altered the press release from the real story... I'm sure so that people don't think they condone that "behavior", they don't want to be liable for a citizen. the suspect was fighting the officer and there were at least 25 people around yelling and throwing stuff. I helped hold the suspect down so the officer could get a free hand and radio for back up. It took about 45 seconds and there were 15 squad cars surrounding the place and they ran up to me with their ARs drawn. This was before I started carrying. I also didn't know it was a shots fired call.
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Wow, that was pretty good of you, AWick. I am impressed.
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I shared that only to show that there is actually good that happens to people. I was indeed lucky that I wasn't injured in that altercation and that I was able to give a very detailed account that matched the officer's account to the "T". They isolated us from each other so that we couldn't "get our story squared away" or mix our experiences or view points before our affidavit.
I really do hope that "Suzie" gets this squared away and look forward to LPD becoming more gun friendly or at least not trying to pin a charge on somebody that in the heat of the moment might not be able to explain why they weren't breaking any laws to begin with, or just flat out ignoring their side of the story... like that will ever happen.
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What are you talking about? Casady is a swell guy... I met him once... :)
http://www.engineering.unl.edu/collegeheadlines/2009/collegeheadlines1-09-09.shtml (http://www.engineering.unl.edu/collegeheadlines/2009/collegeheadlines1-09-09.shtml)
Allan! You big dummy! I've known you for quite awhile, yet never knew this! I am seriously impressed Sir! Let me know when you're ready and I'm buying you lunch. Again, very impressive :)
Good luck to you Susie...
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No point in me commenting on this case without knowing the details, but I would like to comment on the broader issue, which is whether or not citizens are harassed by law enforcement in Nebraska cities for openly exercising a Constitutional right.
I've had dealings with a few police officers (usually for a traffic violation) and when I tell them I have a CHP it's never been a big deal. Except once when I got pulled over by a Barney Fife who was sitting at the bottom a long steep hill with his radar on and he got mad because I told him I had a permit several seconds (literally) into the conversation instead of immediately. Otherwise, I've carried various long guns and handguns in and out of my car, into businesses (in a case) and I've never had a problem. If I carry an assault rifle around in a firing position though, I'll expect to have a problem.
If I remember right our last Lincoln police chief was an anti-gun bigot, and I know our current mayor is a hard core bigot; it's often said that a fish rots from the head down. Does anyone know what the current police chiefs of Lincoln and Omaha are like regarding the right to bear arms?
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This is a prime example of why I back open carry. All I see are people giving advice to never do so (not this thread) and why bother etc etc. I never understood voluntarily giving up your right to do so? This is exactly why everyday Joe and Jane freak out and call 911 whenever the see open carry in use.
We should be promoting open carry instead of just watching for the after effects of encounters with law enforcement.
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This is a prime example of why I back open carry. All I see are people giving advice to never do so (not this thread) and why bother etc etc. I never understood voluntarily giving up your right to do so? This is exactly why everyday Joe and Jane freak out and call 911 whenever the see open carry in use.
We should be promoting open carry instead of just watching for the after effects of encounters with law enforcement.
+1
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People are sometimes blind sided with an ambush because they open carry, and a bad guy or group of bad guys wants one more gun in their arsenal. I tend to keep my private life, private. I do not want a target on my back.
One example is the LEO killed by the Boston Bombers. He was killed so they could have two handguns, rather than just one. The officer had a triple retention holster, so the bad guys killed him for nothing, as they could not get the gun free of his holster.
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People are sometimes blind sided with an ambush because they open carry, and a bad guy or group of bad guys wants one more gun in their arsenal. I tend to keep my private life, private. I do not want a target on my back.
One example is the LEO killed by the Boston Bombers. He was killed so they could have two handguns, rather than just one. The officer had a triple retention holster, so the bad guys killed him for nothing, as they could not get the gun free of his holster.
First, I would like you to go and look for cases where a citizen and not an LEO had someone even attempt to grab their weapon. Once you've done that then look at the cases where the person was successful in gaining control of the weapon. I can tell you right now that you will find so few cases that it is nearly a statistical improbability for a citizen to lose their weapon. So while I would recommend anyone that OCs to have at least a level II holster it isn't that big of a deal for citizens.
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If I remember right our last Lincoln police chief was an anti-gun bigot, and I know our current mayor is a hard core bigot; it's often said that a fish rots from the head down. Does anyone know what the current police chiefs of Lincoln and Omaha are like regarding the right to bear arms?
I don't know about Omaha, but Lincoln's current chief is just as anti-gun as the last one.
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+1
+1
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Maybe next liberal thought police will start harassing people who openly carry a Bible in public, since liberal cattle are frightened and offended by it. Or a copy of the Constitution, or Declaration of Independence, both written by evil white male sexist pig slave owners. If the 2nd Amendment isn't going to be obeyed by our government, why would we expect them to obey any other part of the document?
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First, I would like you to go and look for cases where a citizen and not an LEO had someone even attempt to grab their weapon. Once you've done that then look at the cases where the person was successful in gaining control of the weapon. I can tell you right now that you will find so few cases that it is nearly a statistical improbability for a citizen to lose their weapon. So while I would recommend anyone that OCs to have at least a level II holster it isn't that big of a deal for citizens.
That might be because open carry is relatively rare. I like to remind anyone who advocates OC of some advice written over two millennia ago in the classic book The Art of War: "know your enemy and know yourself, and in a great many battles you will never be defeated." And here's another one: "All war is based in deception." These truths have been tested and proven. It follows that the less your enemy knows about you the more likely he is to be defeated. The more he knows about your capabilities the better able he is to plan against you. Having a hidden weapon is a huge strategic advantage, and I wouldn't give it up. Even in a situation where open carry might be common (like during a breakdown in law and order) I'll still be carrying a hidden pistol. And during peacetime, I prefer that no one know whether or not I'm armed.
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I think there should be a state law saying that police officers who harass law-abiding citizens simply for exercising their right to bear arms should lose their badges and serve jail time. Or better yet, how about a federal law saying that citizens have a right to bear arms. Oh wait a minute, we already have a federal law that says that. Well then maybe what we need is a law saying that government people have to obey the law...
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I've posted this elsewhere also, but bears repeating here too:
Those of you who are from or in Lincoln, need to be aware that even though you may be legal to purchase and own a firearm, and may hold a Concealed Handgun Permit, actually possessing a firearm in Lincoln may be unlawful.
Please read Lincoln Municipal Code 9.36.100 (http://lincoln.ne.gov/city/attorn/lmc/ti09/ch936.pdf (http://lincoln.ne.gov/city/attorn/lmc/ti09/ch936.pdf)). If you were convicted within the last 10 years of a long list of various crimes including Public Indecency and Indecent Exposure you cannot be in possession of a firearm in Lincoln.
This ordinance is not some old antiquated, obscure law, (though parts of it date back to 1956), it was amended as recently as 2006. Hmmm, did that coincide with Nebraska's Concealed Carry law debate?
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I've posted this elsewhere also, but bears repeating here too:
Those of you who are from or in Lincoln, need to be aware that even though you may be legal to purchase and own a firearm, and may hold a Concealed Handgun Permit, actually possessing a firearm in Lincoln may be unlawful.
Please read Lincoln Municipal Code 9.36.100 (http://lincoln.ne.gov/city/attorn/lmc/ti09/ch936.pdf (http://lincoln.ne.gov/city/attorn/lmc/ti09/ch936.pdf)). If you were convicted within the last 10 years of a long list of various crimes including Public Indecency and Indecent Exposure you cannot be in possession of a firearm in Lincoln.
This ordinance is not some old antiquated, obscure law, (though parts of it date back to 1956), it was amended as recently as 2006. Hmmm, did that coincide with Nebraska's Concealed Carry law debate?
This was jthhapkido's response on a different thread, and it is spot on:
With the state pre-emption law regarding concealed carry permit holders, oddly enough, this local ordinance actually has no power over CCW holders with regard to the ownership, possession, or carrying of their concealed firearms.
If you DON'T have a CCW, then yes, this stupid ordinance that doesn't match anywhere else in the state, isn't checked by gun shops (because they can't, and the LPD knows it) and that won't actually ever get used except as an added criminal count if the LPD is trying to arrest you for something---this stupid ordinance does apply.
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Those of you who are from or in Lincoln, need to be aware that even though you may be legal to purchase and own a firearm, and may hold a Concealed Handgun Permit, actually possessing a firearm in Lincoln may be unlawful.
Care to revise your statement? The Preemption laws exempt CHP permit holders...During the 2009 legislative session, the legislature passed LB 430, which gave the state the sole authority to regulate statewide concealed carry laws.