NFOA MEMBERS FORUM
General Categories => Firearms Training and Education => Topic started by: Gary on April 19, 2014, 03:38:37 PM
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Beau is 4 years old. He lives in Adams county. Or he did, till Friday. He will be 4, forever, because some responsible adult, was irresponsible, an did not properly lock away his guns and ammo.
ONE
This is what I want everyone to do, right now. Clear your loaded guns, hidden under a curtain, under a blanket, under a mattress, in a closet, hidden in your home, apartment, business, wherever, and LOCK THAT GUN (s) (now unloaded) UP!
I am sick and tired of reading about young adults killing friends, toddlers dying, and on and on. It has to stop!
That is number one. Lock up your guns! Switzerland is smart enough to figure that out, when will we learn?
You need a gun safe, appropriate to lock up your guns. Have a concealed carry handgun, you want ready quickly while you sleep? You may leave that magazine loaded, according to your guns owners manual, holstered, in a safe, that holds that gun, at your bed side. Your collection of guns, needs to all be unloaded, and all the ammo, locked up in another safe. There is no excuse for a personal collection of anything, that can get out of hand, and kill people.
TWO
Get out your guns owners manual, and read it. Not just the part where it tells how to shoot it, read all the safety warnings. All of them.
Does your gun manual tell you to keep a round in the chamber? Does your owners manual, say exactly the opposite? Yes it more than likely does. All owners manuals I have read, say to keep the chamber unloaded, until you are ready to fire.
I can hear it now, all the other instructors jumping on my back, telling me how dangerous that is, having a gun, that is not instantly ready to shoot. For those people, I would say, BS. Having a round in the chamber, in most guns, for most people, is not safe, according to most all gun manufactures, including for concealed carry.
An exception would be military, or law enforcement personnel, that are fully trained to carry with ammo in the chamber. Many gun owners manuals give this clearance for Military and LE. That is still dangerous, as dozens of LE's ND a round into them, presenting their firearm all across this country, every year. This week, a police officer tried to shoot a pit bull named Precious, and put the round in his knee. At last report, Precious is doing fine, and the officer is hospitalized. Turns out Precious is not mean, just a barker, like all dogs are.
You have an 8 hour class from the State Patrol CHP trainer? Is that all the training you have? Is your training on another firearm, or maybe 30 years ago? If you are not fully trained, with thousands of rounds fired, you have no business chambering a round 24/7, for some unseen green zombie. Your greatest threat to your families safety, is more than likely, YOU!
Want to feel safe, and that is why you carry one in the chamber? Purchase your gas at stations at 2PM, not 2am. If you hang out in places, where you need a round chambered, 2 pound trigger pulls, and the like, you need to upgrade your environment, not your readiness level.
THREE.
Read one and two, again, and again, till it effects your daily routine, and all four year olds, are allowed to become five year olds.
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Does your gun manual tell you to keep a round in the chamber? Does your owners manual, say exactly the opposite? Yes it more than likely does. All owners manuals I have read, say to keep the chamber unloaded, until you are ready to fire.
I can hear it now, all the other instructors jumping on my back, telling me how dangerous that is, having a gun, that is not instantly ready to shoot. For those people, I would say, BS. Having a round in the chamber, in most guns, for most people, is not safe, according to most all gun manufactures, including for concealed carry.
Children should not have unsupervised access to firearms. We agree on that.
Other peoples careless and ignorant handling of firearms will never dictate how I carry or store mine. I will continue to have a fully loaded pistol in a rapid access safe in my home. I will always carry a fully loaded pistol on my person everywhere I legally can. I have had the opportunity to participate in some very realistic training and very quickly came to the conclusion that having a weapon in a condition that it cant be immediately used is BS.
Anytime you want to work this as a force on force drill with training weapons PM me. I will meet anytime, anyplace. We will video tape the results and post them right here. You can show everyone how easy it is to employ an un chambered weapon while under duress.
- Shawn
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Children should not have unsupervised access to firearms. We agree on that.
Other peoples careless and ignorant handling of firearms will never dictate how I carry or store mine. I will continue to have a fully loaded pistol in a rapid access safe in my home. I will always carry a fully loaded pistol on my person everywhere I legally can. I have had the opportunity to participate in some very realistic training and very quickly came to the conclusion that having a weapon in a condition that it cant be immediately used is BS.
Anytime you want to work this as a force on force drill with training weapons PM me. I will meet anytime, anyplace. We will video tape the results and post them right here. You can show everyone how easy it is to employ an un chambered weapon while under duress.
- Shawn
Your offer to video the results are already done, and are all over the internet. I do not wish to participate in any show of testosterone, that ends in death or injury, daily, all over our country.
My preparedness mindset, is 100% safety, not speed. My students are not taught to race into anything.
Here are a couple examples of people, well meaning, even highly trained, very highly trained, that got into trouble, not following simple safety rules.
http://youtu.be/fnFrVadSET8 (http://youtu.be/fnFrVadSET8)
http://youtu.be/k-rGnMKszxg (http://youtu.be/k-rGnMKszxg)
If you want the musical link, here you go. Little wild, so it is not an embedded link.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=deeMCYsyV94 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=deeMCYsyV94)
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Very sad story. I had not heard about that.
I guess I haven't read much or heard an instructor recomend that you keep all guns unloaded before.
My main reason for owning firearms is home & self defense.
I have several different loaded weapons throughout my house that are locked in safes with 4 digit codes...i have children & would never consider leaving a weapon unlocked. As far as keeping them unloaded, I don't know how proficient I can become at loading shells into my 870 at 4am if my alarm system goes off.
As far as ccw, it took me a while to start carrying with a round chambered & now I don't think I would go back.
I run through brief scenarios in my head in almost every store I go into now. The one that always pops into my head is, I'm in a store/gas station & walk into a robbery...which has already happened to me long before I carried...& I fall back & don't engage the perpetrator, now without a round chambered I either have a weapon that isn't ready or I have to chamber a round & draw attention to myself tobe ready to defend myself...
The part about going to get gas during the daytime sounds good...except the gas station near my house has been robbed twice during the daytime so far in 2014 & the robbery I witnessed was at 10am on a weekday. If I thought I could avoid serious crime by not going out late I would have no need for a concealed handgun permit.
I am relatively new to owning firearms for self defense, I just can't imagine locking my guns in a good quality secure safe & then putting every bit of ammo in a locked safe elsewhere...for me that would defeat the entire purpose of being ready & capable to defend myself & my family.
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This thread will be contested by many firearm instructors. I grant that. My main concern, is safety. I feel some people are more afraid of unreal possibilities, to the point, they endanger themselves by going beyond what is safe for them, and their families.
I am almost afraid to read the news, for fear, of the next ND death in our community.
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An unloaded gun is about as valuable in a self-defense situation as a brick.
My children do not have access to my loaded self-defense handguns without my knowledge and supervision.
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We do not know exactly what happened. Family members were present and it was "apparently" accidental.
I talked to the Sheriff as late as 5 P.M. Friday and he had no specifics then either.
We should avoid knee jerk reactions.
But I can tell you I raised two boys to be grown men and never once had my guns locked away, but I didn't keep them loaded and lying around either. Nor did we get them out and wave them around in the house. They were taught safety and respect.
If I lock up all my guns I may as well not have any.
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I don't think my grandkids will mess with my guns, they have there own.just like me, when they hit 10 years old, they got there first gun, its in there closet, I checked it a lot at first to see if it was moved, It hasn't been, unless I tell them to go get it so we can shoot in the yard,
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Your offer to video the results are already done, and are all over the internet. I do not wish to participate in any show of testosterone, that ends in death or injury, daily, all over our country.
My preparedness mindset, is 100% safety, not speed. My students are not taught to race into anything.
Here are a couple examples of people, well meaning, even highly trained, very highly trained, that got into trouble, not following simple safety rules.
Im not sure what videos of idiots having NDs proves other than sometimes people ignore the basic rules for handling a gun safely. Carelessness, complacency, call it what you will but these things happen when dealing with human beings. Statistically deaths by accidental discharge of a firearm are rare. Of course one is too many and only though education and constant vigilance can we prevent these tragedies from occurring.
When you advocate un chambered carry to your students do you express only the advantages? Or do you go into detail about the disadvantages as well and allow them to make an informed decision as to how they will carry? Have you ever personally experienced the disadvantages in training or even real life? If not, you should. Otherwise how are you truly informed on the topic?
- Shawn
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These deaths while tragic are blown out of proportion by a media pushing a agenda.
Around 40,000 deaths a year in automobile wreaks, going to quit driving?
How about 440,000 deaths last year chalked up to medical mistakes. I would definitely avoid doctors.
As for me I'll keep carrying with one in the pipe and keep a loaded gun by the bed side.
I do believe in gun safes as I own several, but they will never be a substitute for education and training.
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These deaths while tragic are blown out of proportion by a media pushing a agenda.
Around 40,000 deaths a year in automobile wreaks, going to quit driving?
How about 440,000 deaths last year chalked up to medical mistakes. I would definitely avoid doctors.
As for me I'll keep carrying with one in the pipe and keep a loaded gun by the bed side.
I do believe in gun safes as I own several, but they will never be a substitute for education and training.
+1
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somewhere I saw a article about how many people die on stairs every year. don't remember how many but sure was a lot more than guns,
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I believe in keeping guns locked. I also believe that a gun without a round in the chamber is an unloaded weapon. I keep my pistol in a small gun vault in my room. Why? Bc while I accept that the act of accessing my gun will be slowed compared to if it was laying on the night stand, I have done the risk/reward assessment and have sided with safety concerned with grubby little kid mitts getting to it over safety concerning speedier access(I agree that it's more likely the kidmates will gain entry than an evil doer.) But I'm not going to further slow down access by having it unchambered. Heaven forbid in a stressful moment forget to chamber(after all, it's been ingrained in me that every weapon is loaded, not that every weapon is waiting to be chambered) a secure gun is a secure gun just as an unsecured gun is an unsecured gun. If it's locked, that chambered round won't magically fire and if it's unsecured with an empty pipe and a kid gets a hold of it, there is still a great danger
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I also believe that a gun without a round in the chamber is an unloaded weapon.
I take exception to this statement. However, the rest of your post seems to contradict this one sentence.
if it's unsecured with an empty pipe and a kid gets a hold of it, there is still a great danger
Fly
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OP is almost like that city law in somewhere in the great commie east coast that all firearms no matter what must be locked in a box/safe/compartment what have you
its really a poorly thought out idea ala safe act
someone breaks into my house, ok I have a gun case 2 levels underneath me, I have to sneak down a flght a stairs, through my living room down another flight of stairs unlock my gun case without the lights on or being heard and my family is all still upstairs unprotected.
I keep a handgun with arms reach while laying in bed.
I'm planning on building a way to mount either a shot gun or my AR inside my bedroom closet
don't like being unarmed, because thats what you are if you dont have a loaded gun available to you.
an unloaded shotgun is just an odd shaped bat.
an unloaded handgun locked in a safe next to my bed when someone is walking down my hallway to my room or my childs room is no more protection than the police which are 5 minutes away when the bad guy is 30 seconds away
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Your offer to video the results are already done, and are all over the internet.
I've seen both of those videos dozens of times (either watched or linked). Neither has anything to do with a "highly-trained" individual. The cop received some initial training and then, based on averages, spent four hours a year "qualifying" with his duty weapon. Tex, the vlogger, is simply an idiot.
There are times when both speed and safety are necessary and both can live harmoniously. When stupidity or hubris (or both) are mixed with speed and a lack of safety bad things happen.
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I knew there would be a lot more to this story.
Not an accident. Intentionally shot by his older brother.
A lot more going on here than a gun safe can fix...
http://www.khastv.com/story/juvenile-petition-filed-against-boy-in-death-of-brother-20140424 (http://www.khastv.com/story/juvenile-petition-filed-against-boy-in-death-of-brother-20140424)
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I knew there would be a lot more to this story.
Not an accident. Intentionally shot by his older brother.
A lot more going on here than a gun safe can fix...
http://www.khastv.com/story/juvenile-petition-filed-against-boy-in-death-of-brother-20140424 (http://www.khastv.com/story/juvenile-petition-filed-against-boy-in-death-of-brother-20140424)
Wouldn't a gun safe have helped him make a better decision? Still a senseless act that would have been stopped by a gun safe or trigger lock on an unloaded gun. No way to bypass a security feature if there's malicious intent.
Gary, help me out here!!
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Nine year olds, with intent of shooting 4 year olds.
There is a scene in No Country For Old Men, where Tommy Lee Jones is talking to another sheriff, and the two are remarking on how the fabric in society, had gotten so bad.
" Once you quit hearing Sir & Mam, the rest is soon to follow "
The young people of today, have no respect for elders, often times. TV, video games, and there is no respect instilled into anyone anymore.
The problem with todays young people, does not give a pass, on the adults in the home, that did not properly secure that .22 rifle, in that home.
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Centers for Disease Control and Prevention found that more than 1.7 million children live in homes with loaded and unlocked guns.
On average, 500 kids are shot by themselves, or other children, every year, in this country.
Read more: http://www.momlogic.com/2009/09/gun_accidents_kill_500_kids_each_year.php#ixzz2zsIACSjs (http://www.momlogic.com/2009/09/gun_accidents_kill_500_kids_each_year.php#ixzz2zsIACSjs)
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Here is one example of someone that seems pretty able to protect himself, and at the same time, make life for his family, his neighbors, pretty safe from ND's
I never want to have some student of mine, walk up to me, with a tearful story about them having an ND.
When safety equipment, is more dangerous , or as dangerous, as the threat, one has to look at the safety equipment, and ask, how could an ND happen, how could a grandchild get ahold of this, how................... could something go wrong, and do whatever it takes to secure that equipment, so the unthinkable never happens.
http://youtu.be/WjMGLfg5uaU (http://youtu.be/WjMGLfg5uaU)
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I grew up with bring back rifles from WW2 above my headboard with ammunition in a drawer by the guns. As a kid I had access to electric stoves, gas cutting torches, hot water, knives, guns, I had motorized equipment, cars, trucks, tractors, all kinds of grain elevators and equipment to put hay up/in the barn. There was chemicals all around for dispatching rodents the list goes on and on. Somehow I survived and was taught proper use of these evil things without them being locked up, hidden away in no touch zones. We did play inside of shelled grain bins, but had no idea that you could be sucked under like quick sand and killed. Yes that is now a lesson that should be taught to kids. All guns loaded all the time, and handle them as if they are loaded at all the time is the way I roll.
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"Dangerous Things" by Nutnfancy (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7dE4UgY7lgI#)
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Here is one example of someone that seems pretty able to protect himself, and at the same time, make life for his family, his neighbors, pretty safe from ND's
http://youtu.be/WjMGLfg5uaU (http://youtu.be/WjMGLfg5uaU)
Nice range drill and a good place to start if you have decided to carry un chambered. But this is the absolute best case scenario. You have time, distance and both hands to manipulate the gun.
Now show me how quickly you can chamber your weapon one handed because the other one is occupied or injured. Think you will look as good as that guy while being hit or pushed? How about from the ground? All of these situations need to be considered and planned for ahead of time.
You said that you arent interested in working these drills with me. I bet there are still some openings in the 6/27-29 SouthNarc ECQC (Extreme Close Quarter Concepts) class.
You like videos, here`s one that looks more realistic.
http://youtu.be/CkSPeOhGPHE (http://youtu.be/CkSPeOhGPHE)
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Centers for Disease Control and Prevention found that more than 1.7 million children live in homes with loaded and unlocked guns.
On average, 500 kids are shot by themselves, or other children, every year, in this country.
Read more: http://www.momlogic.com/2009/09/gun_accidents_kill_500_kids_each_year.php#ixzz2zsIACSjs (http://www.momlogic.com/2009/09/gun_accidents_kill_500_kids_each_year.php#ixzz2zsIACSjs)
Another way to state that is .029% of the households with unlocked and loaded firearms have deaths from firearms. Or, that is less than half of one one hundredth of one percent. Not to sound callus, but that's pretty damn low. Should it be closer to zero, of course. But this is the kind of thing that lawmakers use when they start pounding the desk while pushing their legislation. People who aren't familiar with the subject, and/or can't do simple math, are swayed into thinking we need that new piece of legislation that tries to legislate common sense into law.
Should people be more responsible with guns, I think they should. Does a gun safe and/or unloaded guns work for everyone's situation? Absolutely not!
Fly
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I have to disagree with the reference of momlogic.com. Sounds like the statistics that Shannon Watts of MDA likes to use. I think this is a great video to illustrate the realness of the situation of an empty chamber.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=syxrpLbaEuY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=syxrpLbaEuY)
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I grew up with bring back rifles from WW2 above my headboard with ammunition in a drawer by the guns. As a kid I had access to electric stoves, gas cutting torches, hot water, knives, guns, I had motorized equipment, cars, trucks, tractors, all kinds of grain elevators and equipment to put hay up/in the barn. There was chemicals all around for dispatching rodents the list goes on and on. Somehow I survived and was taught proper use of these evil things without them being locked up, hidden away in no touch zones. ... ... All guns loaded all the time, and handle them as if they are loaded at all the time is the way I roll.
Amen to this. Same upbringing for me. I don't think I'd ever heard of or seen a "gun safe" until well into adulthood and - until this thread - not sure I had never considered that there were people out there who bought them to keep other family members away from a gun. I'd always just assumed the universal application was to keep burglars away from the guns.
"All guns are always loaded" is classic Jeff Cooper 101. I also like M. Ayoob's philosophy that you don't "child-proof your guns" but rather you "gun-proof your children" by having guns and shooting and safety as a matter-of-fact part of their life. When they're raised that way, misusing or abusing a gun is a totally foreign and absurd concept. Of course there are young ages when it's simply too soon to expect them to learn these things, but by about Tiger Cub age of 6 or 7 most kids can start the learning, with BB guns.
Hanging in the gun rack in my boy's room is a Daisy Red Ryder, his Cub Scout Arrow Of Light, and a .22 single shot. If I went to him right now and said "don't ever aim that in an unsafe direction or shoot it without my supervision" he'd rightfully look at me puzzled like "Duh!".... Why the heck would anyone want to do that? Exactly! Why indeed!?
This is much like the thread on alcohol after shooting and my thinking here is the same. I say let's not go through life stigmatizing things. Let's inform people of the right way to do something (obey gun and alcohol laws, never drink in excess, teach kids proper gun respect / safety) then stigmatize the fools who do it wrong.
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I take exception to this statement. However, the rest of your post seems to contradict this one sentence.
Fly
not sure why you think it contradicts the statement that an unchambered gun is an unloaded gun, but it wasn't meant to. sjwsti did a better job of pointing out why you want your weapon to be ready when it's needed. My last point was that having a round in the chamber isn't the problem, having it unsecured where children can get to it is.
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If you are not fully trained, with thousands of rounds fired, you have no business chambering a round 24/7, for some unseen green zombie. Your greatest threat to your families safety, is more than likely, YOU!
Want to feel safe, and that is why you carry one in the chamber? Purchase your gas at stations at 2PM, not 2am. If you hang out in places, where you need a round chambered, 2 pound trigger pulls, and the like, you need to upgrade your environment, not your readiness level.
With this holier than thou attitude you're displaying in this thread and the alcohol/gun ranges thread you sure are coming off as a Liberal. I sure am glad I've had the instructors I've had. Sure are some loons out there...
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With this holier than thou attitude you're displaying in this thread and the alcohol/gun ranges thread you sure are coming off as a Liberal. I sure am glad I've had the instructors I've had. Sure are some loons out there...
+1
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not sure why you think it contradicts the statement that an unchambered gun is an unloaded gun, but it wasn't meant to. sjwsti did a better job of pointing out why you want your weapon to be ready when it's needed. My last point was that having a round in the chamber isn't the problem, having it unsecured where children can get to it is.
I guess the way I look at it is that an unloaded weapon, verified by 1, 10 or 1,000 people is still a loaded firearm to me. I try to make sure my attitude towards it and handling of it is the same regardless of whether I think it is loaded or unloaded.
Maybe I'm just not understanding that one sentence. Otherwise, I wholeheartedly agree with the gist of the rest of your comment.
Fly
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I think we're on the same page fly. I agree whole heartily that you should treat every weapon as if it were loaded. I was more using the cliche as a way to relate an unchambered weapon as a weapon that is not ready to be deployed
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I think we're on the same page fly. I agree whole heartily that you should treat every weapon as if it were loaded. I was more using the cliche as a way to relate an unchambered weapon as a weapon that is not ready to be deployed
Ok...now I understand.
Fly
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http://www.khastv.com/story/pecor-arrest-20140509 (http://www.khastv.com/story/pecor-arrest-20140509)
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School officials noted several incidents of the boy choking, kicking, and hitting other students. Other incidents include, choking and killing a cat, gory threats, threats of physical harm to students and animals. And, the boy threatened to kill family members.
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The warrants were filed Thursday in Adams County Court. Bond has been set at $250,000 for Amanda Pecor and Matthew Edwards.