NFOA MEMBERS FORUM
General Categories => General Firearm Discussion => Topic started by: SemperFiGuy on July 31, 2014, 10:09:21 PM
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It was a very nice Springfield XDM-40. Until today. At the range.
Working on shooting steel. Everything was chugging along just fine. Gun was going Bang-Bang-Bang; steel was going ping-ping-ping, complete w/wiggle.
Then came a Great White Flash and a matching KA-BOOM!! Followed by total bewilderment and immediate damage assessment. Polycarbonate safety glasses worked fine. A few cuts in face from cartridge shards, small cut to strongside hand, and that's about it.
Those plastic guns blow up from the middle and this one followed the pattern quite nicely. The slide system may be salvageable. And the magazine, maybe, if we can ever get it out of the mag well. However, the frame is bulged and the rails are twisted laterally outside the frame. The frame is a complete and total loss. That serial number will now be retired forever.
So What Happened?
Since I was shooting reloads, first-think is overcharged cartridge case. The preceding rounds were lightly charged, maybe 1100fps or so. But the last one was a powerhouse. Most probably like Jimmy Buffett says, "It's my own damn fault". And I'm a known stickler on reloading safety protocol, so how's about them apples!!
I haven't checked the reloading data yet, so can't post it here at the moment. My handgun reloads are always on the light side. Except that Last One.
Can't really think of another plausible reason than powder overcharge. Unless the Cong pulled the bullets and replaced the powder w/C4.
First reload out of tens of thousands to ever KA-BOOM! Now, how to make it the Very Last?
FYI and Always Wear Safety Glasses.
sfg
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Sucks....... Glad to hear you are OK.
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try to use a powder that when its double charged, it overflows the case.
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try to use a powder that when its double charged, it overflows the case.
I'm a big fan of this.
Just curious, do you load on a progressive or a single stage?
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Wow! Glad to hear you are ok.
Fly
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Glad you're ok. Curious and scary.
(I suppose it's a bad time to use the old "pics or it didn't happen" line.)
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The problem may not be the reloader. I also blew up a firearm not many years ago in .40 S&W and mine was a G22.
Truly dislike the .40 S&W ammunition (round) the more research I have done the more problems of similar KaBooms I have found. Google it, many an example found. These KaBooms have been from Glock's, S&W M&P's and Spring Field XDM's.
Yes, other pistol main frame calibers have KB's 9x19 and .45ACP but few and far in between compared to the .40 S&W.
This shooter will not be the owner of or fire another .40S&W firearm!
I'll just go back to eating my buttered popcorn now.
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Glad no serious injuries. The gun can be replaced. Not so easily, fingers.
Randy shares a caution that some people follow, including the rascal James Yeager.
High pressure rounds wear on guns more, and may go kaboom more often than low pressure loads like 9mm and .45? Maybe.
Ill stick with the high pressure calibers.
Did I gather you have reloaded a long time? Even so, some continuing education for reloading may serve you well. A few trainers on here may be able to suggest someone. Our southern area has a couple new to reloading trainers with NO expirence. Watch out for that and keep looking.
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Glad you're okay.
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How many times had the brass been reloaded? I recently had a .380 blow up with factory ammo and the manufacturer determined it was from weak brass near the base of the cartridge.
John K
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First off Ken glad you're OK.
It's also possible that an under charge could do this foul deed. Very glad you're okay :D
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First off Ken glad you're OK.
It's also possible that an under charge could do this foul deed. Very glad you're okay :D
Good point.
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Glad to hear you suffered no lasting damage. Keep us posted on what you find as the cause.
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(I suppose it's a bad time to use the old "pics or it didn't happen" line.)
Good Point. Could be just another Forum attention-seeker milking the tender sensitivities of the crowd. If I can figger out (a) my cell phone camera, (b) transmission to computer, and (c) Photobucket, I'll post some pics.
try to use a powder that when its double charged, it overflows the case
Totally A-greed on this one. (FWIW, powder choices can be pretty narrow these days.)
Just curious, do you load on a progressive or a single stage?
Single stage ancient Pacific press w/stand-alone single stage powder dropper. (Because.......I've always intuited that the S-S device is "more controllable" and less likely to mischarge, overcharge, double-charge, whatever. Maybe; maybe not. I do check powder charge weights about every 10 rounds or so and continually watch the vernier scale to ensure that it hasn't moved. Trying to be meticulous, which is why this KA-BOOM! has me somewhat confounded.)
...low pressure loads like 9mm...
Might want to look that one up on the SAAMI data sheets. 35,000psi on 9mm; 38,500 on 9mm +P. (Agreed on the .45ACP; but the 9mm is a different breed of cat.).
Did I gather you have reloaded a long time?
Yup. Metallic (rifle, pistol). Shotgun.
How many times had the brass been reloaded?
Good question. By me, once. But....it's all range pickup brass. No way to really know. Brass should have an automatic reload hashmark on the rimface. So each time it goes bang, it makes a "check". I do the mandatory visual check on brass after tumbling: cracks, bulges, corrosion, and other etc. anomalies.
It's also possible that an under charge could do this foul deed
Yes. Possible. The detonation phenom. Thought about it. No way to prove. Also, I've always wondered what happens if a live primer gets loose from a hand priming tool, falls into a case mouth, and gets a powder charge dumped on top of it. Coulda happened, I guess. So there are other possibilities, but the most likely one in this case may be powder overcharge. aka Operator Error.
Summary
I'm going to run the gun over to Tim Casteel, gunsmith, at Carl Jarl's this morning so he can take a look at it for a post mortem.
Once wuz a song, "I've Got a Brand New Pair of Roller Skates, if You've Got a Brand New Key....." So if any of you Fiine Folks happen to have a Springfield XDM40 frame laying around in your junk box, I just may have a slide and a magazine. We could put them together and see what happens with a new batch of reloads.
Just Thinkin'..............
sfg
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.40 S&W is susceptible to case head blow outs when the brass is weaker than it should be...a hard thing to inspect for or control in the hand loading process, and the reason I don't own any .40 cal handguns
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Good Point. Could be just another Forum attention-seeker milking the tender sensitivities of the crowd. If I can figger out (a) my cell phone camera, (b) transmission to computer, and (c) Photobucket, I'll post some pics.
Some of us just want to see some gore and destruction to go with all that verbosity. It's like being stuck on the interstate for a half an hour because of a wreck. Might as well rubberneck like the rest of 'em when it's your turn.
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Single stage ancient Pacific press w/stand-alone single stage powder dropper. (Because.......I've always intuited that the S-S device is "more controllable" and less likely to mischarge, overcharge, double-charge, whatever. Maybe; maybe not. I do check powder charge weights about every 10 rounds or so and continually watch the vernier scale to ensure that it hasn't moved. Trying to be meticulous, which is why this KA-BOOM! has me somewhat confounded.)
No system is perfect. Personally I am completely sold on the auto indexing progressive. I have only had 4 rounds with issues (all squibs) and that was on a 550 which was having issues and causing distractions. ASSUMING all the automatic operations of the press are working correctly, you are much safer iMHO when the operator has less to do. All I have to do is...
1) Verify that the case has powder and that it looks correct (mine fills the case about half way)
2) Set a bullet on the case
3) Pull the handle down
4) Push the handle up
5) Go to step one and repeat
I have all the buzzers that tell me if the powder or primers are low. I have never understood the "You should start on a single stage to be safer" attitude. On my progressive, I can run each station and see what it does, just as if I was running a single stage. It doesn't hurt that the Dillon is a fantastic machine that does it's job correctly and accurately over, and over, and over again.
What is the most significant error that can cause a dangerous reload? Powder charge? That's not a rhetorical question. I am too new to think of all the possibilities, but I would guess that is the most likely. No primer? I will see that when I put the round (bullet down) in the ammo box, or it just won't fire. Worst part is the powder that dribbles everywhere. If a primer doesn't get seated all the way? Again, I should see this when I put the rounds in the ammo box. I caught it before. Worst case scenario, it will fire when it goes into battery. Hopefully my practicing the motor skills of safe gun handling will pay off and the gun will be pointed in a safe direction. Bullet not seated correctly and/or it is not crimped enough? It probably won't feed. Bullet seated too deep or not far enough? I measure the first couple of rounds from each reloading session and then measure intermittently. Any single round that is WAY off will be obvious in the ammo box. Again, I've caught it before, but that was on the 550. I'm sure there are many more possible issues, but these are the most common, with too low/high of a powder charge being the most egregious. So far I've loaded between 6 and 7K with my XL650, and I haven't had any major problems <Insert Fingers Crossed Emoticon Here>.
My personal opinion, but one that is reinforced by historical observation of the chain of errors leading to an accident, is that the less steps a person is given to complete, the less likely an error will occur. There are caveats, but that is a pretty solid rule.
Fly
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(http://i916.photobucket.com/albums/ad2/SemperFiGuy1/photod_zps3340ffc8.jpg) (http://s916.photobucket.com/user/SemperFiGuy1/media/photod_zps3340ffc8.jpg.html)
For Those Who Wished to See a Pic:
Here's the blown XDM40. You can see that the frame is bulged out.
The rails are sprung out to the sides. And the light line across the flat top of the chamber was part of the event. Wasn't there before.
And the next (top) cartridge in the magazine has been completely flipped over and is pointing the wrong way. The bullet in that cartridge had a deep crease down the middle.
On the left side, the slide release is sprung out away from the frame. Rear sight was jarred loose.
Not as much fun as seeing a train wreck. But when the gun blew, it was an adrenaline popper.
sfg
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Wellhell, there's yer problem. You's puttin the bullets in backards!
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Wellhell, there's yer problem. You's puttin the bullets in backards!
Well, here's a follow-up:
It has always been astonishing to me in the case of concealed carry classes, how often students actually DO put them in backwards.
Mostly 22s, but not always.
sfg
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So if any of you Fiine Folks happen to have a Springfield XDM40 frame laying around in your junk box, I just may have a slide and a magazine. We could put them together and see what happens with a new batch of reloads.
Just Thinkin'..............
Glad you are unscathed, for the most part. I have an XDM40 frame, not in a junk drawer, but I have it. I am kind of curious as to the cause. I guess we may never know.
If you want to see if you can blow mine up also I'd be willing to meet you at ENGC and let you work your magic.
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Now you have come up with a most interesting suggestion.
PM sent.
sfg
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I think you are very lucky you weren't injured. And I am very glad for that. Weird things happen.
It reminded me of this video below...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJg4hjqPlQs (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJg4hjqPlQs)
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The new line on top of the barrel hood suggest an out of battery detonation, could have been as simple as a high primer or a stuck firing pin.
A few years back I blew up a Kahr K-9 with an out of battery detonation, scared the daylights out of me............course in MY case, with a steel gun, I put the pieces back in ( blew out the ejector ) and ran a few more rounds through it the following day. I never really did find a satisfactory explanation for the failure ( most likely a bad handload, one of my own )
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DenmanShooter
Interesting video you posted about the S&W M&P. Very closely parallels my own KA-BOOM! experience:
>Previous shooting was going along just fine.
>Got to/near end of magazine.
>KA-BOOM!
>Personal Shock and Awe (What in the &^%^%$#$%^ just happened?)
>Am I OK? Anything broken/busted/bleeding?
>Small amount of facial shrapnel, minor bleeding, small bit of hand trauma.
>Handgun now locked up.
>Handgun is bulged from inside out; various frame parts wrecked; slide appears to be less affected.
>High pucker factor results.
Biggest difference was that I was using own reloads; he claims factory ammo. Mighta been factory reloads, based on inferences in following video.
And my appreciation goes out to you and all other Forum members who have expressed relief at my personal safety. (Me, too.)
Finally:
How to get back into the game? (And learn to Shoot-While-Flinching.)
newfalguy
( most likely a bad handload, one of my own )
I hate when that happens.
sfg
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im just happy you're ok.
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I, personally, was hoping to see more blood and stuff. But, whatever. ( ;) )
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First off Ken glad you're OK.
It's also possible that an under charge could do this foul deed. Very glad you're okay :D
A friend of mine fired a reloaded .45 round in his Judge (the .410..45 pistol) and it blew up. I determined from the reloading data his dad used that the cartridge was under loaded and he didn't use wadding to fill the rest of the cartridge.
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I, personally, was hoping to see more blood and stuff. But, whatever.
Bull:
Well frankly, under the circumstances at that time and all that, it wuz quite enough for me.
We'll see what happens next if MHicks and I ever get our gun parts put together and try the results @ ENGC, as he generously suggested.
And....YOU are welcome to attend the proceedings. Maybe fire the First Shot. We'll watch from behind the tree.
sfg
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A friend of mine fired a reloaded .45 round in his Judge (the .410..45 pistol) and it blew up. I determined from the reloading data his dad used that the cartridge was under loaded and he didn't use wadding to fill the rest of the cartridge.
How does that blow up the gun?
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Glad your ok. First I've seen a casing flip like that. Learn something new everyday.
Are you going to contact Springfield about it? Maybe they can work a deal for ya. It would be a good PR move.
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Are you going to contact Springfield about it?
Took the remains to Tim Casteel, gunsmith @ Carl Jarl [locks & gunsmithing] on I Street in Omaha.
Tim is going to do a post-mortem on the gun, see what he finds, and then we'll review it together. Perhaps in about a week or so. It's quite possible that the actual reason for the blowup may never be determined. [Some suggested causes include powder overload, powder underload, split case, unsupported case, bullet setback, and Zombie Revenge.]
What Tim finds and his recommendations based on his findings will determine the next steps. Handgun manufacturers will generally not remedy any gun damage where reloads (this case) were used. Can't fault them at all for taking that stance.
MHicks of this Forum has offered a suggestion earlier in this post which has merit, if my XDM40's slide assembly survives the review.
When any information comes back, I'll post it here on the Forum.
Meanwhile, I'm gonna get a good, sturdy grinder shield and a coupla meat cutter's gloves in preparation for the next shooting session.
And--of course--continue to religiously wear safety glasses.
sfg
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LOL I'd be real interested to hear what he finds out since he didn't even know how to put my M&P back together correctly after his assistant smith put the whole pistol in a vice to change out the sights and bent internal parts. The slide would still move back and forth when dry firing after he "fixed it". Had to send it back to S&W so it functioned correctly. I wouldn't let him touch any firearm!
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Perhaps I missed it in an earlier post, but, do you still have and could you post a pic of the (remains?? ) the case from when the pistol failed??
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How does that blow up the gun?
I have jonm's thirst for knowledge. From what I have read (which is very little), there is no known reason for this phenomenon. Some say it only occurs with slow burning powders with a high case volume to powder volume ratio. Though I've also read that ammunition manufacturers have not been able to reproduce it. Seems to be somewhat debated, though I'm not saying it isn't possible.
Fly
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Perhaps I missed it in an earlier post, but, do you still have and could you post a pic of the (remains?? ) the case from when the pistol failed??
Pic of the handgun after the blow up is posted earlier in this thread.
Regarding the cartridge case: Parts of it went in my face. And then were picked out. Other pieces were spread around the firing line by the blast. I did find a remnant on the ground that could have been the culprit, but not sure. Front part of the case was blown off at an angle. The base appeared to have been scraped very hard across the slide face, scarfing off part of the metal off into a flashing.
Since I couldn't definitively identify that piece of case as the culprit, it was left at the range. Shoulda done better, but I also lost my cool around there somewhere and wasn't all that lucid at the time.
sfg
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...but I also lost my cool around there somewhere and wasn't all that lucid at the time.
No doubt! I would have been mentally out of the game.
Fly
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Finally:
How to get back into the game? (And learn to Shoot-While-Flinching.)[/size]
newfalguyI hate when that happens.
sfg
This exercise is good at removing flinching.
Again, glad my IW buddy is OK!
http://youtu.be/NxyTFzgWjhk (http://youtu.be/NxyTFzgWjhk)
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Took the remains to Tim Casteel, gunsmith @ Carl Jarl [locks & gunsmithing] on I Street in Omaha.
LOL I'd be real interested to hear what he finds out since he didn't even know how to put my M&P back together correctly after his assistant smith put the whole pistol in a vice to change out the sights and bent internal parts. The slide would still move back and forth when dry firing after he "fixed it". Had to send it back to S&W so it functioned correctly. I wouldn't let him touch any firearm!
+1 I was told by a very prominent member of this board who I trust and respect, that their isn't any worthwhile gunsmiths in the Omaha area. None that he would take his firearms to anyway.
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Gery, that's a ok drill, but you Know that second shot is a dead one. I prefer to (have someone) random load a empty round (preferably a snap cap) in my mags. That way you do not know which will be the dead round. ALL the evil monsters WILL rear their ugly heads. I've done this with a few 'good' shooters (as well as myself)
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I'll echo all the sentiments that your okay!!!!
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I have jonm's thirst for knowledge. From what I have read (which is very little), there is no known reason for this phenomenon. Some say it only occurs with slow burning powders with a high case volume to powder volume ratio. Though I've also read that ammunition manufacturers have not been able to reproduce it. Seems to be somewhat debated, though I'm not saying it isn't possible.
Fly
Detonation or Secondary Explosion Effects?
The knee jerk reaction is "double charge".
There were ten cartridges. The first cartridge shot exploded. The rest of the reloads had the powder charge the loader claimed he used. Bullets and primers in the remaining rounds were the same. Cases looked good. AOLs were the same on the remaining cartridges. IIRC, I calculated the charge volume to be only about 1/4th the volume of the cartridge, taking into account the part of the volume taken up by the bullet in the casing. I don't think anyone spiked it with granulated TNT...
http://www.reloadammo.com/liteload.htm (http://www.reloadammo.com/liteload.htm)
Date: Sun, 29 Dec 1996 12:22:51
From: One Horse clochmul@chem.duke.edu
Subject: Re: Detonations
This is an important thread because the more people try to use popcorn poppers { light loads} the more chance there is for more destructive events. Far be it for me to argue with FBI Ballistics but as a Ph.D. chemist with more than the average knowledge of explosives and such:
1. There are studies that show that essentially all the powder in a typical pistol load combusts before the bullet leaps the gap into the forcing cone.
2. The expansion that occurs is the expansion of the gases produced in the combustion not the expansion of the powder.
The best argument for why detonation occurs rather than the simple burning and slow burning rate of smokeless propellant is that very light loads expose a larger surface to the primer jet, By analogy, granary explosions occur when finely divided dust is suspended in air-the effect is a detonation. If you have never seen a granary but saw "Outbreak", the sterilizing bomb in the beginning of the movie is a fuel aerosol bomb { once called Daisy Cutter}. The rapid combustion/explosion/detonation is the result of the high surface area of the aerosol fuel droplets {total area of all the droplets}. The effect is dramatic and large landing zones for helos can be created where no stumps are left but no crater is formed. The analogy is to a the high surface area of a flake or ball powder expose to ignition if it is spread as a thin layer over an entire case length. More powder gets burning sooner and ....
One way to make a lab experiment fail is to load and keep the cartridges bullet up and then load so as to not spread the light charge over the length of the case? If the theory is correct, that is. There is a pertinent article in the last issue of The Cast Bullet - the Cast Bullet Association journal.
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Pic of the handgun after the blow up is posted earlier in this thread.
Regarding the cartridge case: Parts of it went in my face. And then were picked out. Other pieces were spread around the firing line by the blast. I did find a remnant on the ground that could have been the culprit, but not sure. Front part of the case was blown off at an angle. The base appeared to have been scraped very hard across the slide face, scarfing off part of the metal off into a flashing.
Your description ( in my mind anyway ) seems to support my theory that you experienced an out of battery detonation.
I neglected to mention that I am glad you weren't hurt.
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Your description ( in my mind anyway ) seems to support my theory that you experienced an out of battery detonation.
I neglected to mention that I am glad you weren't hurt..
Second Thing First: Once again, I sincerely appreciate all the solicitous comments received here in regard to my personal safety.
Back to First Thing: I'd really like to believe that this event resulted from an out-of-battery detonation (rather than from a powder overcharge) because my reloading practices are about as meticulous as can be carried out on a single-stage press setup. Nevertheless, it happened.
I'll be back on the shooting range again soon. And most definitely do not want a repeat of this experience. Probably couldn't bring myself to mention it to anyone, especially this Forum.
[/size]
sfg
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A few questions:
How many rounds through this gun?
Not to be insulting, and possibly a REALLY stupid question, but did you ever lubricate the firing pin channel?
Fly
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... but did you ever lubricate the firing pin channel?
Somewhere on this Forum I have a post advising against this very practice.
[If I'da dunnit, could never have looked Chris Z straight in the eye again.]
How Many Rounds?:
Bought used, but gun was quite clean when purchased, except for some minor holster wear. But all the wear parts were sharp and crisp. Like the flat place atop the chamber that had no previous wear line on it until the event occurred. That line occurred during the blast.
I shot that gun during the past two local USPSA Level I and Level II events using factory ammo. All in all, I've probably put about thirty-five (35) magazines or so through it. Not all that much.
BTW.... I do put very, very light grease on the slide rail mating parts and around the barrel where it mates with the slide. Always manage to skip the striker pin.
Thanx for askin'.
sfg
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Your reloaded ammo from that batch, how many rounds remain? What are you going to do with those remaining rounds?
I dont reload. Out of everything in the gun world, it is the thing I know the least about. My ignorance of the subject breeds fear. Me, I would pass on shooting the remaining rounds from that lot batch. Just to be on the safe side.
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Glad you are ok
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Gary:
Your reloaded ammo from that batch, how many rounds remain? What are you going to do with those remaining rounds?
Bucketsful. Ice cream buckets full. Not kidding, either. About five (5) buckets full. And that's just the .40S&W reloads. I ate all that ice cream so that I could reload all winter and have a place to put the ammo.
You have reached right into the heart of things and articulated my dilemma: What about the rest of that reloaded ammo? I'm working on a recovery process and may post it for Devil's Advocacy from Forum members when I get it all lined out.
mudnrox:
Thanks a bunch.
sfg
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Following Up w/Gunsmith Report:
(http://i916.photobucket.com/albums/ad2/SemperFiGuy1/photo_zpsa39b244b.jpg)][URL=http://s916.photobucket.com/user/SemperFiGuy1/media/photo_zpsa39b244b.jpg.html](http://i916.photobucket.com/albums/ad2/SemperFiGuy1/photo_zpsa39b244b.jpg) (http://[URL=http://s916.photobucket.com/user/SemperFiGuy1/media/photo_zpsa39b244b.jpg.html)[/url]
Tim (gunsmith) called today with his report and commentary.
Said that the XDM40 had been disassembled and checked out. He indicated that the front part of the cartridge case had remained in the chamber while the back part of the case broke off and was ejected. So the ragged piece that I found at the range must have been the actual case back end. However, being uncertain at the time, I tossed it away, preferring instead to search for my Lost Cool and fingers at the moment and not being so preoccupied w/post mortem at that particular time.
Tim said that the handgun was actually repairable. In fact, the only permanent damage was to the extractor, which had bent down from the blast and deformed beyond repair. To illustrate, in the earlier posted picture(s) the next (unfired) cartridge in the magazine had been turned backwards. It now appears that the nose of that bullet was wiped and marked by the extractor, meanwhile setting the bullet back in its case, as shown in the newer pictures immediately above. In this process, the extractor was totaled.
Tim says that the rest of the handgun, despite the KA-BOOM, appears to be in workable order. Apparently the slide rails returned to their proper place in the frame w/just some urging. The slide is OK. Except for the extractor, of course.
So--All that's needed is a brannew XDM40 extractor and the handgun is ready for testing.
Now the problem: No XDM40 extractors to be found anywhere. Neither factory nor the usual gunsmithing sources. Shelves and parts drawers are empty of this part. Indefinite wait. Ammo shortage is moderating; parts shortage is picking up.
Which means that I'll have to switch to my other .40S&W handguns for a while. Including the Lone Wolf .40S&W barrel for my Glock 33 (.357SIG).
So much for having Too Many Handguns. (Wives, please take note. Just go buy some more living room lamps. They cost as much as a handgun these days.)
And that's the story for now.
sfg
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Thanks for the update. As for living room lamps, my wife shops at Goodwill.
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The problem i have seen with SA is they won't release the extractors to anyone, and you have to ship the gun to them. Cruze had a similar issue with his XD, lost a spring or something of the like. It may or may not have a Glock spring now...
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The problem i have seen with SA is they won't release the extractors to anyone, and you have to ship the gun to them.
Y'know, I don't really have any real heartburn over that particular approach. I often ship guns back to mfgrs for repair, figgering that they know more about their own guns than anyone else. Especially Old Charley over there at the company workbbench. (Now....how to make sure the gun gets to Old Charley..........)
And...it would provide one more quality control cross-check to make sure that the gun actually is again safely shootable. [Come to think of it, wasn't safe the first time....]
The two big problems with doing so are well-known: time and money.
However, I'll mention this first point to Tim and see wot's wot.
Thanks.
sfg
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Thanks for the update sfg. Was thinking of your post this am. Really glad it's repairable.
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You just did an Instructors Workshop for Glock, and right away this happens. Maybe the karma gods are talking to you. lol We all know Glocks never kaboom!
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You just did an Instructors Workshop for Glock, and right away this happens. Maybe the karma gods are talking to you. lol We all know Glocks never kaboom!
I think the issue is an out of battery discharge. I also think you are correct in that Glocks won't fire out of battery. Not sure of that but you can probably confirm or set me straight.
So the question is why did the out of battery situation occur?
Easiest answer is out of spec ammo.
But it could also be a problem with the firearm.
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We all know Glocks never kaboom!
For the record, I did the Glock Instructor's Workshop with a Glock 23 .40S&W and Precision Metallic Cartridge (PMC) 165gr factory ammo. [I always do classes, matches, and other group events w/factory ammo, which is perhaps less likely to KA-BOOM and do harm to others/me or Focus Attention On and Cause Great Embarrassment to the Shooter.]
I did the recent KA-BOOM with a Springfield XDM40 and my own 155gr BerrysBullets plated bullet reloads. All alone on the range, which isn't a real good idea, either. Last Other Shooter had just left the range.
Tim says the cause was "cartridge overpressure, cause indeterminate", but we should consider:
So the question is why did the out of battery situation occur?
Easiest answer is out of spec ammo.
Yes. Any little speck or burr on the cartridge case or bullet will prevent the slide from going into battery. Sure coulda happened. And would be consistent w/Tim's more general statement.
Still Spooked.
sfg
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We all know Glocks never kaboom!
I beg to differ. I have seen what is left of a g23 that ka-boomed in the operators hand. (I figured this was in jest. But I had to say sumthin lol)
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thanks for the update. let us know how the testing goes.
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I also think you are correct in that Glocks won't fire out of battery. Not sure of that but you can probably confirm or set me straight.
I admit I don't know you well enough to know if this is supposed to be tongue in cheek or not, but on the off chance you actually believe this statement, consider this, NO guns are designed to fire out of battery, that's the reason "firing out of battery" is a failure....and ANY mechanical device *can* fail even the beloved glock.
Appreciate the update, all too often these kinds of events pop up with no follow up and just leaves us all wondering,,,,
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Appreciate the update, all too often these kinds of events pop up with no follow up and just leaves us all wondering,,,,
Kinda my thinking, too. Which actually prompted the follow-up here on the Forum.
The XDM40 is still at the gunsmith until the scarce-extractor situation gets resolved in some manner. Or until I go pick it up and put it on the shelf. Either way, it won't shoot until it gets a new extractor. (Hmmmm.... maybe convert it to blowback mode. Or get a little 5-inch poky-rod for extraction purposes....)
However, I've got buckets of reloads in .40S&W caliber.
So the next issue is what to do with them. Like:
1) Just scrap them; throw them away. (Where?)
2) Pull the bullets; check powder loads. (Groan............... Makes me weary to think of it.)
3) Go ahead and shoot them, THWI. (Kinda scary. Certainly would develop a serious flinch.)
4) Come up with rational plan to recover them incrementally. (Professor-talk.)
5) ?
I'm kinda at a sticking point right now. I do have other handguns that will shoot or can be converted to shoot .40S&W cartridges.
Currently pondering the next move.
sfg
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As I said, I do not reload, so I am just asking a basic question. If all the cases and primers and lead weigh the same, by weighing each round, can you tell how much powder is in each one?
Please Join The NRA
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ok.....I cant sleep....its late at night....should be sleeping but I have an idea to share. Not sure of what type of scale your using but rather than pulling bullets, what would happen if you weighted them all, the fully loaded rounds, throw them on a scale and see what each one weights, I would think you would end up with a high, low and average. Pull the highest and get an exact powder measure, know what your dealing with. It seems my el cleapo Rcbs 505 scale is + - 2 grain before it pegs high or low. My thoughts are it would narrow down your ice cream buckets of ammo to "suspect rounds". Its a thought, I don't reload much for pistol but a lot of rifle, big difference in powder charges. Just a thought based on many many variables.
Best thing I can think of is eat more ice cream.
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The 556 reloads I have seem to be within a grain or each other , sorted by headstamp trimed and full length sized.
But most importantly I am very glald your ok
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It appears that some Good-Think is going on here:
......what would happen if you weighted them all, the fully loaded rounds, throw them on a scale and see what each one weights
If all the cases and primers and lead weigh the same, by weighing each round, can you tell how much powder is in each one?
Following the above reasoning, here's what I'm doing:
1. Sorting the reloads by headstamp.
2. Segregating within headstamp by total cartridge grain weight.
3. Bagging the weight-segregated results for shooting at the range.
For example, I've got Winchester White Box reloads in these weight ranges:
Grains
226.0 - 226.9
227.0 - 227.9
.....
.....
.....
233.0 - 233.9
234.0 - 234.9
As you can see, the result is a whopping 8 grain weight range. [Very unlike altheman2's 1-grain M/L variation]. However, if you weigh the empty cartridge cases, bullets, and unfired primers independently, a significant weight variation also results due to the natural statistical distribution of stuff. Even within the same headstamp.
I'm going to the range today and start with the lighter rounds [226.0 - 226.9gr.] being shot first. And work my way up the scale, being very alert to any signs of increasing chamber pressure. And will follow altheman2's suggestion to pull some of the higher rounds to measure powder charge weight. First.
We'll see.
sfg
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I admit I don't know you well enough to know if this is supposed to be tongue in cheek or not, but on the off chance you actually believe this statement, consider this, NO guns are designed to fire out of battery, that's the reason "firing out of battery" is a failure....and ANY mechanical device *can* fail even the beloved glock.
:) I am neither a Glock lover or a Glock hater. It just seems like that's all I hear is "Glocks never fail." But, really, in my opinion it doesn't matter how many grains of powder or the bullet weight or even a brittle case. If the gun is functioning properly, unless you use some wicked powerful powder, you can't put enough in to make the gun blow up (unless the barrel is plugged, which results in a different kind of catastrophe), the chamber should be built well enough to contain that overpressure. Glocks did however have an issue with .40 chambers allowing the case to bulge. So you have to check your .40 brass close when reloading if you are using range brass so you don't load some of that and try shooting it. That could have caused the OOB situation. In the case of .40 I would think that more likely than about any other scenario except maybe not seating the bullet correctly.
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Or get a little 5-inch poky-rod for extraction purposes....)
Currently pondering the next move.
sfg
The little 5-inch poky-rod is a very technical term. Everyone needs to keep one in the range bag.
As for you next move, if you need help, I just happen to have a G23 that would love to see some of you ammo.
Best thing I can think of is eat more ice cream.
+1
Also agree on to tedious job of weighing the ammo.
A friend of mine reloads off of a Dillion Press 650, and had a squib at the range. He weighted all the ammo to find if there was any others. Luckily, he had only 500 rounds, not ice cream buckets.
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As you can see, the result is a whopping 8 grain weight range.
This is exactly my experience when I was dealing with a reloading conundrum. Thought I might be able to weigh each round and pull out the odd ones, but the variance was SO huge, it was futile.
I'm a reloading newb, and I didn't think that was going to work. Though I wanted someone else to say what I was thinking.
Fly
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Yeah shoot I knew there was going to be some variances but didn't think it was going to add up to 8 grains if you sorted by headstamp
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This thread is why I dont understand reloading. I love working with my hands, building stuff, fixing stuff, BUT, none of them when used as designed have the ablilty to take a finger off or worse.
66bigblock
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Went to the Range Today
For reload testing, per previous discussion. Took along some 385 reloaded rounds in the range of 226.0 grs to 234.9grs, total loaded weight. All Winchester head stamps, 155gr HBRN plated BerrysBullets, 5.1gr Win231. WSP primers.
Started with the 226.0 - 226.9grs group in a Glock 23. Decided to try some benchrest group accuracy shooting to combine w/the reload testing. Sat down at the bench, shot from one of those red plastic triangular 3-steps/side devices. With a little breath and trigger control, actually shot some decent groups (3" - 6") at 30 feet. [Yes--I know--those aren't bragging groups; they are just baseline groups for comparison to when I shoot without any kind of bench rest. That is, what can the gun do; what can I do.]
Anyhow, the first batch of reloads went very well, no jammies of any kind at all. No especially loud reports nor heavy recoils of any kind. Just plain old smooth target shooting. So I went to the 227.0 - 227.9 batch and cranked those rounds out, as well. Same story; nothing to cause particular alarm.
Making a long story shorter, just kept on working up through the heavier cartridges, banging along and having a good time. Clanking on steel now. Until all 385 cartridges were fully exhausted, along with the shooter. Nice groups were history; my usual spray-and-pray handgunnery kicked in, but that's not germane to the actual testing process.
Nothing untoward at all during the whole shootaree. As it happened, nothing happened except plain vanilla target shooting. Can't ask for better results under the circumstances. Certainly, no KA-BOOM! But there was only one of those the last time.
Now.....what's lurking in all those other remaining rounds?
sfg
Addenda:
(a) The little 5-inch poky-rod is a very technical term. Everyone needs to keep one in the range bag.
As for you next move, if you need help, I just happen to have a G23 that would love to see some of you ammo.
(a) 5" Poky-Rods: $35 on eBay, plus shipping.
(b) Ya know, shooters are usually generous types, but it's folly to ever let someone else shoot your reloaded ammo. We all can see why.
I love working with my hands, building stuff, fixing stuff, BUT, none of them when used as designed have the ablilty to take a finger off or worse.
Table saw? Just askin'.
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Pick up a Hi-point Carbine in .40!!
A buddy of mine has a carbine in 9mm, and a heavy hand on the powder measure ( really like the guy, but, don't shoot his loads in MY guns ).
He has told me some of the numbers he is getting on his chrony..............makes me wonder just how overpressure they actually are!!!
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Next Step in this Saga:
Needed to track down an XDM40 extractor, as previously described. Went on the web looking for a Springfield parts supplier or an aftermarket parts distributor. Whereupon I ran across numerous postings where shooters said that they had tried to buy an extractor from Springfield, but SA would not sell to them.
So I called Springfield Arms customer service in Geneseo, IL to check up on their replacement extractor policy.
Very Nice Lady said that they would NOT ship an extractor to me, my gunsmith, or anyone else. The only way I could get the XDM extractor repaired was to ship the handgun back to them and their factory service mechanics would do the installation.
Which is perfectly fine by me, because the mechanics could also check out the rest of the handgun and render a second opinion upon its condition and prospects as a shootable handgun. I'm frankly a little astounded that this particular handgun might live to shoot again. It took one heckuva beating. Slide rails sticking out, big bulge in the middle, etc. So let's give it a really, really good going over before shooting it again.
The Springfield Lady sent a FEDEX shipping label by email which I printed out and then put on the handgun package. Preprinted, barcoded, all that. Gave the package to the FEDEX Lady. It's on the way to Illinois (that's one way to get a handgun into Illinois).
Springfield mechanics will call me at home, describe handgun condition, and costs of repair. When they get to it. (They are closed all next week for annual shutdown.)
I never asked why Springfield will not sell extractors. Figgered the Lady didn't make the policy; she only follows it. Maybe some Forum member will know or have an idea. I don't.
So.... When I hear anything from SA, I'll post that info here on the Forum.
That's it for now.
sfg
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Thanks for the update. It will be interesting to see there opinion. Hopefully, you included a printout of this post so they would have a history of what happened. Good Luck sfg.
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Hopefully, you included a printout of this post so they would have a history of what happened
Actually, I gave them the shortened version: "Pulled trigger, cartridge (not gun) went KA-BOOM!"
Letting them take it from there.
sfg
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So.... When I hear anything from SA, I'll post that info here on the Forum.
Interim Report:
XDM40 arrived OK at Springfield Armory in Geneseo, IL.
I promptly received a call from Rob Dominque of the SA repair shop. He said handgun was now repaired and OK to shoot. Would cost $18 for the extractor and general examination of condition; $30 for round-trip shipping.
SA is closed to shipping this week (Labor Day shutdown); handgun will ship day after Labor Day, be at my house on Thursday next.
Costs so far: $40 to local gunsmith for initial assessment and removing mag full of live rounds and other debris.
$48 to Springfield Arms, per above.
Big Duh on Me: Forgot during conversation to ask Rob if someone had shot the gun after repair. I'll have to call him back to ask.
Now:
After the gun arrives, we'll have to get some of the feistier Forum members (Fly, gsd, FeralCatKiller, Bullit.........[can't risk unfy]) to pre-shoot the gun before I take it to the range.
More to Come.
sfg
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Now:
After the gun arrives, we'll have to get some of the feistier Forum members (Fly, gsd, FeralCatKiller, Bullit.........[can't risk unfy]) to pre-shoot the gun before I take it to the range.
LOL. Glad I made the "expendable" list...I think. I guess I'm in good company.
Fly
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I second for gsd. He like fireballs!
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LOL. Glad I made the "expendable" list..
It's not that Anyone's actually expendable....
But according to an analysis of past Forum postings, you are up high on the Master List of Those Who Like to See Sparks Fly...
(I'm down lower, more toward the bottom.)
sfg
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(http://www.impawards.com/2010/posters/expendables_ver6_xlg.jpg)
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(http://frontiernet.net/~netim/joke.jpg)
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So glad you're alright
I've seen SFG's work first hand, and we've discussed reloading at length.
I would have absolutely every confidence in my own safety if he handed me a box of hand loads to test out myself.
SFG, If you're truly concerned about your powder weights, pull random samples from the buckets of from your sort and give them a disassembly & verification.
I would instead suggest looking through your rounds for cracked mouths or signs of insipid head separation color bands (which I know can be difficult to distinguish from sizing die marks from sized brass / completed rounds).
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After the gun arrives, we'll have to get some of the feistier Forum members (Fly, gsd, FeralCatKiller, Bullit ... to pre-shoot the gun before I take it to the range.
Sorry, but my religion forbids me from drinking alcohol, shooting reloads in guns that have recently exploded, and making annoyingly enigmatic smart-ass comments on forums. (However, I might make an exception in return for a bottle of Dolin Vermouth de Chambéry Blanc.)
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signs of insipid head separation color bands
You may be on to something here.
The Local Gunsmith showed me the front end of the blown .40S&W casing, perfectly round and all that. About 5/16" long. He had removed it from the chamber.
Clearly, there was some kinda case separation involved. Maybe at the cannelure. I'll see if I can find that piece and check it further. Maybe over that coffee you suggested.
sfg
====================================
Dolin Vermouth de Chambéry Blanc.
Aha..... Maybe what's in that bottle in your avatar??
www.drinkupny.com (http://www.drinkupny.com) › Wine › Wine By Price › $10.00 - $19.99
$15.99 - ?In stock
====================================
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Are there stronger guns than the one that grande-ed? Say a single shot contender? Maybe invest in one of those, or pass the buckets of ammo to someone with a heavier gun.
Sent from my SPH-L600 using Tapatalk
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Well worth considering, Gary.
Good thought.
sfg
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I can just hear folks from an earlier time reading this thread with all the cautionary notes having a real chuckle. They might call us an unkind feminine name, and laugh saying, when was the last time I used all ten fingers all at the same time anyway, as they rocked in their rocking chairs whittling away on a piece of pine, on the porch of a log cabin they built by hand by a river.
I tend to think safety first, but our nation was built with a spirit of get er done. Vast projects where men paid the price of lives and limbs.
I tell my students no reloads in class, the classes I take usualy tell me the same thing. In years past, I thought nothing of buying reloads at a garage sale, or gun show.
Times have changed, and they have changed us as a nation. Could we build a Hover Dam or Panama Canal today? Will our grandkids be able to build such structures and pay the price for such feats of architecture?
Seatbelts, child seats, no smoking and no child left behind that cant balance a checkbook.
We have gone from 15 round boxing matches where both men almost kill one another to WWE matches where winners are picked months in advance and the audience knows it, and does not care.
I grew up across the street from Katelman Foundry. A hard industry run by hard men. Long hard days, and if they did not have sun dried leather skin, they had cooked leather skin from pouring molten steel.
The foundry is gone now, along with hundreds of jobs and a good way of life. Times have changed, but I miss the old days where boys were boys and girls were girls and maybe a girl had a purple dress, but she darn sure did not have purple hair.
I would like to say, bring a bucket of ammo over and we will have a good time, but I reckon the foundry is gone in most all of us.
Sent from my SPH-L600 using Tapatalk
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Are there stronger guns than the one that grande-ed? Say a single shot contender?
Cat's Curiosity (rather than search for possible purchase) got working on me and had to check it out.
Found that Thompson's website doesn't show pistol barrels for either G, G2, or Encore configurations in .40S&W caliber.
Didn't check the web for aftermarket Thompson Contender pistol barrels in .40S&W nor for any kind of rifle barrels (seeing no real point in a .40S&W single shot rifle).
FYI
sfg
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I seem to recall reading at one time that T/C did offer .40 S&W barrels, however, finding one might prove nigh on immpossible
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Getting Close to the End of This Story:
XDM40 came back from Springfield Armory by FEDEX man today.
Turnaround on this handgun was very fast. Maybe about a week, not counting the days that SA was shut down for pre-Labor Day activities. But including two days there and two days back. They worked on it and completed the work the very day they received it.
Handgun came back w/indications that it had been test fired: (a) dirty bore and (b) invoice marked Function: Good.
To this layman's untrained eye, handgun looks pretty much OK all over. Woulda never thunkit after what happened to it.
Now it needs to go to the range. But...today is booked and tomorrow is dove hunting. (Might take it and fire it out in the dove boonies. We'll see.)
Coupla Nice Small Things:
1) SA included a used plastic pistol case in the return shipment that I did not send to them.
2) The original KA-BOOM loosened the rear sight on the XDM. Came off in my hand. Didn't have an Allen wrench of the right size in the XD Gear. However, the tiny Allen wrench for my LaserGuard fit exactly and worked just fine to tighten up the rear sight.
Sometimes, things go right.
After I shoot the handgun, one more post and then we can drop this one.
sfg
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forget that.
armslist.com as only factory test fired!
66bigblock
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By George, I think I done got it.
Lets do this right and make it a fundraiser for the ol NFOA!
Pay to play. $5 per chance to shoot this now famous peestol. Names randomly pulled from hat to determine order. 10 rounds per, ammo randomly grabbed from the bucket.
Step right up! Step right up!
Sent from my C771 using Tapatalk 2
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Maybe it could be weaseled in like such:
Factory Fresh: only factory test fired!
sfg
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By George, I think I done got it.
Lets do this right and make it a fundraiser for the ol NFOA!
Pay to play. $5 per chance to shoot this now famous peestol. Names randomly pulled from hat to determine order. 10 rounds per, ammo randomly grabbed from the bucket.
Step right up! Step right up!
Uh oh! You might need an Ne Gaming license. Lottery? Raffle? There is a significant difference.
http://www.revenue.nebraska.gov/gaming/Lottery_Raffle_ppt_bw_11-2012.pdf (http://www.revenue.nebraska.gov/gaming/Lottery_Raffle_ppt_bw_11-2012.pdf)
Or, is it a Gift Enterprise?
http://www.revenue.nebraska.gov/gaming/statute/giftact.pdf (http://www.revenue.nebraska.gov/gaming/statute/giftact.pdf)
Remember, it is not what you think the law is, it is how those who enforce it read the law.
(Disclaimer: I wrote the gaming software for the Ne Dept of Rev Gaming division.)
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Back from dove hunting now.
No doves anywhere today. At least, not where we were. However, some very light rain. So we left; came home. (We were not duck hunting.)
But I did schlepp along the XDM40 to the Boonies. And did take a mag full of reloads.
So I shot about half a magfull into the dirt bank just to test function. Which it did just fine do. I then quit shooting because it seemed like the right thing.
No Nebraska Game and Parks game wardens showed up; neither did anyone from the Nebraska Gaming Commission.
Glad to have my nice XDM40 back and working again after the KA-BOOM. Never thought it could be saved, all that frame stuff bulging out the sides and all that. Thought it wuz surely a Goner. [My Glock coulda never recovered from such an event, right?]
So far as I'm concerned, this story is now completely told.
sfg