"Yet this same pistol bullet fired at point blank range will not dent a grizzly’s skull, and to shoot a grizzly with a .22 caliber pistol would simply be one way of committing suicide.”
Why is penetration depth the "go to" standard for lethality? If each of these rounds are designed to hit that approx 14-16" depth then the next thing to analyze is the energy dissipated and subsequent wound channel. That picture shows some nasty amplitude in both of the 40S&Ws, the 45 ACP, and of course that 357Sig! It is simply physics.
In slow motion, the ballistic gels distribute the energy in waves. In the classical wave theory, energy of a wave doesn't depend on the frequency and wavelength of the wave (i.e. the penetration depth and other factors), only the total area under the amplitude curve (if the wavelength is the same, then it comes down to amplitude. A wave's energy is directly proportional to its amplitude squared. This is where the amplitude of those larger calibers, and the 357Sig come into play.
I am too tired (and possibly not bright enough) to understand everything you just wrote. However, I think I get the gist of what you are saying. My only comment would be that, to take it to an extreme as extremes tend to emphasize what is really happening, if the bullet never penetrated or barely penetrated, how much do the waves matter? The more the bullet penetrates without passing straight through, the more that energy is dissipated into the gel/body.I think you're following as best as can be expected with my out of the blue physics ramblings! :)
Or did I completely not understand?
Fly
I think you're following as best as can be expected with my out of the blue physics ramblings! :)
The amplitude of the red areas in the picture above represent the affected tissue as it expanded, tore apart, and collapsed back together, creating a neat and measurable amplitude curve. This is where they probably came up with the product name for Hydra-Shok, given that our bodies are 70%ish water.
While it is certainly true that kinetic energy E=(mass*velocity^2)/2, giving faster rounds a squared factor more than bullet weight, it is also true the extra powder makes up for this and we all have seen the ballistics charts. 22lr is around 100 ft-lbs, 380 auto is around 200 ft-lbs, 9mm is around 385 ft-lbs, 40S&W is around 485, 45 ACP is around 411 ft-lbs, and 357Sig is around 600 ft-lbs.
What this all means is that if each of those calibers is taking 16" to stop then the energy actually delivered to the target is still 3X as much for a 357Sig than a 380 auto. That energy dissipation directly relates to the amount of tissue that experiences extreme trama and the severity of said trama...
Of course, any vital organ or nervous system hit is going to have similar results nearly regardless of what caliber is in play.
Maybe I'll have to buy that 357Sig barrel for my 40S&Ws M&P40c after all!
I think you're following as best as can be expected with my out of the blue physics ramblings! :)
The amplitude of the red areas in the picture above represent the affected tissue as it expanded, tore apart, and collapsed back together, creating a neat and measurable amplitude curve. This is where they probably came up with the product name for Hydra-Shok, given that our bodies are 70%ish water.
While it is certainly true that kinetic energy E=(mass*velocity^2)/2, giving faster rounds a squared factor more than bullet weight, it is also true the extra powder makes up for this and we all have seen the ballistics charts. 22lr is around 100 ft-lbs, 380 auto is around 200 ft-lbs, 9mm is around 385 ft-lbs, 40S&W is around 485, 45 ACP is around 411 ft-lbs, and 357Sig is around 600 ft-lbs.
What this all means is that if each of those calibers is taking 16" to stop then the energy actually delivered to the target is still 3X as much for a 357Sig than a 380 auto. That energy dissipation directly relates to the amount of tissue that experiences extreme trama and the severity of said trama...
Of course, any vital organ or nervous system hit is going to have similar results nearly regardless of what caliber is in play.
Maybe I'll have to buy that 357Sig barrel for my 40S&Ws M&P40c after all!
Maybe I'll have to buy that .357Sig barrel for my 40S&Ws M&P40c after all!
just say bigger bullets=bigger hole
Aha! Another convert on the brink!
Hard to go wrong with that move.
I figured I'd bring SFG out of the woodwork with that statement!
I am too tired (and possibly not bright enough) to understand everything you just wrote. However, I think I get the gist of what you are saying. My only comment would be that, to take it to an extreme as extremes tend to emphasize what is really happening, if the bullet never penetrated or barely penetrated, how much do the waves matter? The more the bullet penetrates without passing straight through, the more that energy is dissipated into the gel/body.AWick's physics is spot on.
Or did I completely not understand?
Fly
...the target will loose blood quickly enough to lapse into unconscionableness.
That energy dissipation directly relates to the amount of tissue that experiences extreme trama and the severity of said trama...
Unconscionableness? ??? :)
One of the issues with this way of thinking of pistol caliber bullet weight/size and pistol caliber velocities is that pistol calibers and rifle calibers are significantly different in terms of velocity, and therefore the elastic stretching that occurs in pistol calibers is significantly different than in rifle calibers.
Simple way of saying it: In general, pistol calibers simply aren't going fast enough for the temporary cavity to actually damage anything. Rifle calibers ARE, and the temporary cavity is sufficient to actually damage tissue. (SFG already said this in a clear fashion.)
There are a number of good research reports out there about wound ballistics, but most of them sum up to:
--with modern JHP ammunition, with respect to efficacy in terms of stopping bad guys other than barrier penetration, there is no significant different in pistol calibers from 9mm up through .45. (And yes, that includes .357sig and 10mm.)
--there is a world of difference between pistol calibers and rifle calibers in terms of wound ballistics damage, unless you are talking about incredibly small rifle bullets moving fairly slowly for rifles compared to .38Super major loads (moving quickly for pistols).
--Temporary cavities look really cool in slow motion in ballistics gel. However, in human tissue, pistol temp cavities don't "stretch" tissue enough for damage.
--the concepts of "energy dumping," damage-as-a- function-of kinetic-energy, and momentum calculations all seem to have fairly little to do with reality, according to the research.
This, unfortunately, is incorrect:
Nope. Wish it was, because wound ballistics would be a lot more simple, and the caliber wars would be over. :)
--for pistol calibers, physiological stops are functions of accuracy. Psychological stops aren't functions of calibers.
--for rifles, things are different.
And just because, a video of a slug into ballistics gel in slow motion, because we know that slugs are just the end-all, be-all of self-defense:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ftrCtOyLrmU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ftrCtOyLrmU):)
Can anyone tell me exactly what part of a human ballistic gel is supposed to represent?
...
If I could hit significantly better with a 9 I would carry a 9, but since I can hit as well with a .40 there is no good reason not to have the extra power
....
Basically, you need to ensure you can hit the vital points and stop the threat. Requiring at least 12" of penetration in ballistic gel gives you a good baseline for effective terminal performance in a wide variety of situations.
...Greg Ellifritz. He published his analysis of 1,800 shootings over a period of ten years on his blog under the title An Alternate Look at Handgun Stopping Power and as a somewhat simplified article in American Handgunner exactly a year ago. Ellifritz's data include shotguns (mostly 12 gauge) and centerfire rifles. It should be no surprise that they were far more effective than any handgun. The only thing that bothers me about Ellifritz's study is that, although he mentions statistical significance, he never quantifies it. Therefore, we can only guess how big a difference must be before we can attribute it to performance of the cartridge rather than random chance. Ellifritz says that failure rates between 13% and 17% for calibers from .38 special to .45 ACP imply that they are similar in performance. It may be significant that the failure rate for .357 magnum (including .357 Sig) is only 9%.
It's simple physics that shooting a given bullet faster or a bigger, heavier bullet at the same speed will be more effective. However, physics can't determine whether small and fast is better or worse than big and slow.
Compared to more powerful cartridges, 9 mm has three advantages. They are controllability, magazine capacity and cost. Better controllability results in more hits in less time and fewer misses to endanger bystanders. Lower cost means that more practice rounds can be fired for the same expenditure. The benefits of greater magazine capacity should be self evident.
.327 magnum may be an exception to the rule "Nothing smaller than a .38" since it falls between the .38 special and .357 magnum in power. In a revolver like the Ruger SP101, it gives you six shots instead of five.
FBI and the police dept. who follow their every move are not going back to 9 MM because it is the best ballistic round. It is due to Political Correctness requiring that tiny men and tiny women get to be police and secret service and military and on and on. The lower recoil of the 9 MM improves the shootabillity of the new smaller/weaker public servants.
^This^
Thanks JT, you just saved me some time today.
Can anyone tell me exactly what part of a human ballistic gel is supposed to represent? Does it simulate a solid organ like the liver? Or a hollow organ like the stomach? Maybe lung tissue? Maybe the bladder (empty or full)? You cant ignore the widely varying organ characteristics that exist inside real human beings and how that effects energy transfer.
Kinetic energy + target tissue characteristics = wounding potential.
- Shawn
So, what agents are more likely to have smaller hands? Hmmmmmm.....
You mean the reason why my wife couldn't handle my 9mm Nano but has no problems with a mouse gun?(looking over my shoulders both ways to be sure there are no liberal thought police in the area) Yeah, something like that...
(looking over my shoulders both ways to be sure there are no liberal thought police in the area) Yeah, something like that...
That's what I thought. That guy who ran into the White House and was tackled just outside the Oval Office blew through the guard at the door. Guess what...
I'll be politically incorrect but biologically accurate: Women do not make good guards, soldiers or policemen because those positions often require more physical strength and endurance than the average women possesses. However, it take no muscle to push a button or pull a trigger. Female fighter and helicopter pilots can pull higher Gs than male pilots and at random times of the month can be extremely aggressive. They are also willing:
http://youtu.be/JfY3PFBVOUg (http://youtu.be/JfY3PFBVOUg)
If they are captured, they have more to loose, so I suspect that in combat they'd fight as hard as they could, if all they do is pull triggers. But while carrying 70 lbs of weapons, ammo and gear? They do not have the Testosterone levels that males do, so they do not have the muscle mass nor endurance that can and often is required in a platoon patrol, the occasional exception not withstanding.
We're talking bell curves here. Strong women often overlap weak men, but the strength of the average women is well below the strength of the average man.
f they are killed by a woman they can't get into the promised land and enjoy their 72 virgins or something.
never saw a scientific analysis of 9 v 40 v 45 v 357Sig turn into an anti-islam topic before... regardless of anyone's opinion, that is a pretty far departure...
Yeah. We went from discussing the known performance measurements of various calibers to blaming women for being "weaker" to blaming liberalism to discussing how to stop Muslims from entering heaven. All in 2 pages of the same thread. Pretty impressive.
Yeah. We went from discussing the known performance measurements of various calibers to blaming women for being "weaker" to blaming liberalism to discussing how to stop Muslims from entering heaven. All in 2 pages of the same thread. Pretty impressive.:( sorry...lost control. I will add though that no one blames women for being weaker as you suggest; the point was that feminist dogma dictates that men and women have the same abilities, and that might have something to do with the popularity of the 9mm among PC bureaucrats, which is what started this thread (before it was derailed by talk about ballistic gel, which no one complained about). Handgun stopping power also seems to be a permissible subject on the thread, so there was some talk about how any bullets (including 9mm) can be made better at stopping Islamic terrorists. Just sayin'.
In a forum that isn't regulated by Nazis (had to get that in :laugh: you know a discussion is over when Hitler or Nazis are invoked) or Marxists it is common for threads to wonder. It's a sign of freedom.Yes my friend, by the grace of God we live in a place where free expression is a right, even if some might not like what is being expressed, for whatever reason. Some might argue that the Bill of Rights only limits what government can do, but I would say that it's also a blueprint for American cultural norms. I wouldn't call those who complain about what I post Nazi-like though, since there was no attempt to force anything on us; I'd say they were exercising the same rights we were exercising, and my response is to use those same rights to explain the flaw in their assertions. I did that, by explaining that what you and I were discussing was indeed related to bullet stopping power, and the part about the 9mm and PC bureaucrats especially was very directly related to the OP. I would add that a thread is never really derailed no matter what someone looking for an excuse to ***** about something might assert, since anyone who wants to is perfectly free at any time to post something that relates directly to the original. And no one is ever forced to read something they think is not pertinent or whatever. Letting a thread wander wherever it wants doesn't hurt anything IMHO.