NFOA MEMBERS FORUM
General Categories => Laws and Legislation => Topic started by: Sonicblaze on April 18, 2015, 04:53:19 PM
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I searched and searched and couldn't find an answer. What is the laws in Omaha/NE regarding pepperspray and bars?
I obviously can't have my firearm on me or even locked in my car if I want a beer or two, but can I carry my pepperspray on my belt? I read Florida doesn't even allow that, just curious if there's any laws in NE that I couldn't find.
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Not sure about pepper spray, but it will probably be considered lethal force if you hit someone over the head with a bar.
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It'd be pretty entertaining trying to walk around with a bar concealed in the leg of my pants and trying to draw it out defense :-)
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Sonic, despite all the WAGs in here I really don't think there is anything about caring the pepper spray. Maybe one of the lawyers in here might have some insight?
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Sonic, despite all the WAGs in here I really don't think there is anything about caring the pepper spray. Maybe one of the lawyers in here might have some insight?
What's a WAG?
I hate looking like a grammar Nazi, but it's carrying, not caring; caring is a slogan liberals use in their promotion of socialism.
I was actually hoping someone with knowledge of the subject would answer the question too by the way; I'm curious about it myself. Pepper spray can be a lot of fun. Have you ever sprayed some in the air in a room full of people?
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WAG = Wild A$$ Guess
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WAG = Wild A$$ Guess
A WAG is not very precise. For that, you need a SWAG. That's a scientific WAG.
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FWIW...........
I searched the Omaha Municipal code for both mace and pepper spray.
Got back nothing on the search. Nada.
Appears that pepper spray enjoys no particular attention within the realm of prohibited or controlled self-defense modalities in Omaha.
Stun guns, yes. Definite regulations at the NE state statute level. Mace and pepper spray, apparently not specifically regulated in Omaha. Nevertheless, the OPD LEO will still provide a certain amount of guff, you can bet. (that's wot they hafta do.)
Now: Let's Do the States (from www.pepper-spray-store.com (http://www.pepper-spray-store.com))
States Where Pepper Sprays are Restricted
New York: Sold in pharmacies and by licensed firearms dealers. Animal sprays ordered online are legal.
Massachusetts: Sold by licensed firearms dealers. Animal sprays ordered online are legal.
Michigan: <35 grams per can, no stronger than 10% concentrate. No combinations.
Wisconsin: Pepper spray only, no stronger than 10%. Safety features required. Weight allowed 15-60 grams.
California: Weight restricted to 2.5 ounces (about 70 grams).
Washington D.C.: You must register with the police for possession of pepper spray.
sfg
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Anybody Who Wants to Try It Can Try to Finish This One:
"A Can of Pepper Spray Walks Into an Omaha Bar................................."
[Sorry..........rilly sorry........]
sfg
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What's a WAG?
I hate looking like a grammar Nazi, but it's carrying, not caring; caring is a slogan liberals use in their promotion of socialism.
WAG could be several things including "Wise A** Guess" or "Wise Acre Guys".
If you don't want to be a Grammar Nazi... then don't. I typed that real quick and missed the two letters. My point was to be humorous and give the OP hope that there will be an answer which I, too, and awaiting.
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WAG could be several things including "Wise A** Guess" or "Wise Acre Guys".
If you don't want to be a Grammar Nazi... then don't. I typed that real and missed the two letters. My point was to be humorous and give the OP hope that there will be an answer which I, too, and awaiting.
We're all trying to be funny my friend (maybe unsuccessfully in my case, as usual). But since I strive for precise correctness, let me just point out that I didn't actually say I didn't want to be a grammar Nazi; I said I didn't want to look like one, which means I guess I wanted to be a stealth grammar Nazi. I might add that as much as I hate looking like one I sometimes have to weigh one thing against another, and end up looking like one anyway, because I hate letting a good typo go to waste.
Looks like we ended up getting a good answer to the original question in spite of everything; my thanks to Mr. SemperFiGuy, and thanks to those who answered my question of what a WAG is.
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Hmm... able to do something because no law expressly allows or disallows the act or object.....
What's that called again?
Oh yeah ...LIBERTY!
Sent from my C771 using Tapatalk 2
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OK..........
Here's what I all-too-often see on Cops TV Show:
LEOs pull up to Perp at curb. Start the usual yelling, "Get Down, Show Me Your Hands, Relax, Quit Resisting....Whatever."
Perp won't go along w/LEO's loudly barked commands. LEO pulls out pepper spray, gives Perp a Big Snootful.
Perp pays absolutely no attention whatever to the pepper spray/mace/or other form of oleum capsicum spray. Perp just keeps on doing his Perp thing. LEO sprays and sprays. OC spray has no apparent effect on Perp a-tall.
Then about a Whole Mob of LEOs jump the Perp, cuff him, read him his rights, yada, yada, yada. Perp now in custody, subdued. But not by the OC spray.
Am I sayin' that OC spray doesn't work?? Not at all.
Fer Sure, sometimes it does. But lotsa times, it just doesn't seem to have much effect on the Perp. Guess the Meth or Pot or Meanness in the Perp's system neutralizes the OC spray, whatever.
So don't be surprised if Your Perp just shakes his head, shrugs, and keeps on coming.
Better have a Plan B on deck, that's all.
sfg
Cops TV Addict (Certified)
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I know OC may not work; however there are times I will and do enjoy drinking a beer. I those cases, I want _something_ as opposed to nothing. And in reality I carry pepper gel, not spray. Even if pain-wise they don't react, the gel will affect vision
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I want _something_ as opposed to nothing.
You and I are entirely in sync on this point.
BTW--Even if OC doesn't work each, every, and all the time, I still don't want a big slug of it in the face. Or anywhere else.
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So far it seems there are no laws saying I can't carry it with a BAC>.0000000001 or into a place "making more than 50% of their profit from alcohol sales"
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I know OC may not work; however there are times I will and do enjoy drinking a beer. I those cases, I want _something_ as opposed to nothing.
How about a knife?
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How about a knife?
A knife is questionable, since a knife will either do serious damage or it will do nothing, unlike pepper spray or a big stick. However, carrying a knife for general purpose is something most men do, and if you are forced to defend yourself you use whatever is handy. But it might get you in trouble, depending on the circumstances.
The problem with bars is that alcohol tends to make people ten foot tall and bulletproof, as well as obnoxious fools with really bad judgment. A fight in a place like that is often not a clear cut case of self defense. You might be perfectly sober and fine, but might get assaulted by some big strong drunk who's usually a nice guy. So how do you stop that guy with a knife? Maybe cut him and he'll cry and go home? People get cut up pretty bad sometimes and still keep fighting. And just being threatened with a knife is no guarantee the guy will leave you alone; in fact if I'm ever unlucky enough to have to use a knife to defend myself the guy will feel it before he sees it. I'd rather hit the guy with a chair or something. But I do carry a knife, and given the right circumstances I'd use it to defend myself I suppose. But hopefully not against some drunken fool.
I knew a guy who carried a roll of quarters taped up to increase the power of his fist. The increase in power is greater than you might think; my picture here, for example, is me breaking a cement block with a steel chisel (blunt end), which gives an idea of how much just a little bit of extra weight increases the power of a fist. I'm guessing though that the roll of quarters would be considered a concealed weapon, especially if it was taped up, and it might make it look like you were looking for a fight.
I doubt there's a prohibition on carrying a steel flashlight, which can be said to have a nonweapon purpose. I don't know if I'd want to bop somebody on the head with a flashlight I paid $80 for though. Maybe outside in the dark a super bright light might blind an aggressor long enough to finish him off or get away. And if I had to ruin my expensive flashlight to save my life I suppose I could make myself do it.
How about a heavy wooden cane and you walk with a limp? I'd take a big stick over a knife any day. And nobody's going to take away a guy's cane. I see some high quality sword canes in the online catalog of Atlanta Cutlery, but one of those might get you in trouble. Just a regular cane would probably be the best idea, as long as it's heavy enough and you know how to use it.
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Perhaps carrying a "tactical" pen?
I carry a pen all the time because I do a lot of note taking and need one, but it is made of aluminum has a textured surface and a glass break end. It's thick enough that I can put it in my fist and reinforce a punch but small enough to be used comfortably as a pen.
Granted it is made by Uzi but it's still nice to have a tool in my pocket that can fit my needs without also being an obvious weapon like a roll of quarters. ;)
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I'd argue a tactical pen is still an obvious weapon due to its construction quality and design. Don't remember where, but read that some places consider a tactical pen the same class of weapon as a knife, as both are lethal weapons designed for stabbing.
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In his classic book on hand to hand combat, Get Tough!, W.E. Fairbairn says that a box of matches, of the type commonly carried at the time by nicotine addicts, can be crushed in a fist and it will give your fist enough hardness that a blow from it can be lethal. I think the author might have overestimated the amount of power such a small amount of mass can add to a fist, and there are probably better things to do with matches in the kinds of situations he's writing about. But there is some truth in what he says, because even an empty hand can be an effective weapon, and the more weight you add to it the more powerful a blow with it can be. More important though is the feeling of greater confidence something in your hand gives you, because that can be a big factor.
Bars contain weapons that are probably as effective as some of the things you might carry, and you won't get in trouble for having been carrying something designed to be a weapon. Just look around.
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I'm not worried about a bar brawl, or faking a limp and using a cane, or skirting the already thin line of what's acceptable concealing a knife. Just was trying to find what the laws were around OC spray and a BAC =) More just want something easily accessible for the walk to the car and while driving home.
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I'm not worried about a bar brawl, or faking a limp and using a cane, or skirting the already thin line of what's acceptable concealing a knife. Just was trying to find what the laws were around OC spray and a BAC =) More just want something easily accessible for the walk to the car and while driving home.
Totally understand you SB. I have found it to be the way of this forum that you ask a question and get the answer as well as a discussion that leads from your question into other topics.
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the author might have overestimated the amount of power such a small amount of mass can add to a fist
I don't think it's mass that Fairbairn wanted. Rather, something around which to wrap his hand so that his fist would not collapse on impact.
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I don't think it's mass that Fairbairn wanted. Rather, something around which to wrap his hand so that his fist would not collapse on impact.
Who knows; I can't read his mind. He did say hardness and not mass if I remember right, though it's been years since I read the book. But it's mass that increases the power of a blow with a fist no matter what his meaning was, and the matches don't have much of it.
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Who knows; I can't read his mind. He did say hardness and not mass if I remember right, though it's been years since I read the book. But it's mass that increases the power of a blow with a fist no matter what his meaning was, and the matches don't have much of it.
Mass increases the power of a blow, no doubt. However, it is also true that in the first moments of impact, your hand is effectively a small bag of reinforced water, and it does give quite a bit, which softens the impact. Having even a small tube of plastic (pvc, for a hypothetical example) in your hand actually makes a large difference in the amount of impulse force transferred during a punch.
Here's a video of someone breaking a concrete brick with their hand (actually, they are cheating by also using their forearm) and you can see the deformation of the hand as it happens.
Quebrando Bloco de Cimento em Câmera Lenta - Cement Block Breaking in Slow Motion (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aBVgF0zyzCI#ws)
Here's a better one---take a look at 0:38, where the ripple from the hand deformation goes all the way up the arm.
Now, I wouldn't suggest holding something to make a harder striking surface when hitting brick :) because that "give" in the hand protects it. However, if you are striking a soft surface (like a person), having a harder striking surface (reinforced hand) will make a large difference in the impulse force.
dude breaks cement blocks with his hand (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WDhNVlCE1sE#)
This one, too. Makes me never want to break bricks again. :(
Karate chopping filmed by high speed camera (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=otHZwjElXwQ#)
Anyway---increasing mass makes a big difference. Reinforcing the hand can make a big difference also.
A couple of posts back, depserv also said:So how do you stop that guy with a knife? Maybe cut him and he'll cry and go home? People get cut up pretty bad sometimes and still keep fighting. And just being threatened with a knife is no guarantee the guy will leave you alone; in fact if I'm ever unlucky enough to have to use a knife to defend myself the guy will feel it before he sees it.
I completely agree. While I, like most people, carry a pocket knife that I use as a tool all the time, in a pinch it could work as a self-defense weapon. That being said, most knives tend to be really bad as self-defense weapons.
Kill someone? Sure, they are good at that.
Stop someone from killing you? Not so much.
Remember: a knife is a lethal-force-level weapon. If you pull one, you get effectively the same use of force rules as you do with a firearm. So, you aren't reacting at any lower level of force than if you pull a gun.
Knives also suck at defense--in other words, while it is possible to use a knife to block/divert/stop an attack, it isn't easy. Matter of fact, most pocket-sized knives take a lot more skill to use to stop an attack than it does to do it empty-handed.
Offensive techniques with a knife are basically either stabs or slashes. Stabs (to the torso and such) tend to kill people really well, but they don't notice. Many people have been stabbed with deep, penetrating wounds that eventually killed them, but it didn't make any difference at the time.
We aren't trying to kill them, we are trying to stop them from killing us RIGHT NOW. So we need to stop them RIGHT NOW.
Slashes tend to be bloody, noticeable, and may cause a psychological stop, but they rarely cause a physiological stop. (In other words, a slash may make someone decide they've had enough, but it won't force them to stop attacking because they cannot physically do so.) And sometimes slashes don't even get noticed by the attacker either if they are enraged, drunk, or on drugs.
So: You might kill someone with a knife, but it really hard to STOP someone by using a knife, unless you damage them SO MUCH that they cannot continue to attack. If you are slashing, that's a lot of slashes.
Cops show up, guy on the floor with 15 slash wounds, blood everywhere, you are standing there knife in hand..."He attacked me, officer, honest!"
....you may be telling the truth, but it is going to be a hard sell.
I carry a pocket tool daily, and as a last-ditch defensive tool, it's there. But....I really wouldn't suggest it for anyone's primary self-defense tool. As someone has already said, there are normally lots of things lying around bars and such that make perfectly good tools that will work better.
Here's the real way to bar fight:
http://youtu.be/LT3g51f25qo (http://youtu.be/LT3g51f25qo)
(Not serious. And seriously, don't get in bar fights. 99.9999% of them are between stupid drunk people whose friends should have stuffed them into a car and taken them home long ago.)
Getting back to the OP: No, there aren't any laws regarding OC in bars. :)
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Mass increases the power of a blow, no doubt. However, it is also true that in the first moments of impact, your hand is effectively a small bag of reinforced water, and it does give quite a bit, which softens the impact. Having even a small tube of plastic (pvc, for a hypothetical example) in your hand actually makes a large difference in the amount of impulse force transferred during a punch.
Here's a video of someone breaking a concrete brick with their hand (actually, they are cheating by also using their forearm) and you can see the deformation of the hand as it happens.
Quebrando Bloco de Cimento em Câmera Lenta - Cement Block Breaking in Slow Motion (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aBVgF0zyzCI#ws)
Here's a better one---take a look at 0:38, where the ripple from the hand deformation goes all the way up the arm.
Now, I wouldn't suggest holding something to make a harder striking surface when hitting brick :) because that "give" in the hand protects it. However, if you are striking a soft surface (like a person), having a harder striking surface (reinforced hand) will make a large difference in the impulse force.
dude breaks cement blocks with his hand (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WDhNVlCE1sE#)
This one, too. Makes me never want to break bricks again. :(
Karate chopping filmed by high speed camera (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=otHZwjElXwQ#)
Anyway---increasing mass makes a big difference. Reinforcing the hand can make a big difference also.
A couple of posts back, depserv also said:
I completely agree. While I, like most people, carry a pocket knife that I use as a tool all the time, in a pinch it could work as a self-defense weapon. That being said, most knives tend to be really bad as self-defense weapons.
Kill someone? Sure, they are good at that.
Stop someone from killing you? Not so much.
Remember: a knife is a lethal-force-level weapon. If you pull one, you get effectively the same use of force rules as you do with a firearm. So, you aren't reacting at any lower level of force than if you pull a gun.
Knives also suck at defense--in other words, while it is possible to use a knife to block/divert/stop an attack, it isn't easy. Matter of fact, most pocket-sized knives take a lot more skill to use to stop an attack than it does to do it empty-handed.
Offensive techniques with a knife are basically either stabs or slashes. Stabs (to the torso and such) tend to kill people really well, but they don't notice. Many people have been stabbed with deep, penetrating wounds that eventually killed them, but it didn't make any difference at the time.
We aren't trying to kill them, we are trying to stop them from killing us RIGHT NOW. So we need to stop them RIGHT NOW.
Slashes tend to be bloody, noticeable, and may cause a psychological stop, but they rarely cause a physiological stop. (In other words, a slash may make someone decide they've had enough, but it won't force them to stop attacking because they cannot physically do so.) And sometimes slashes don't even get noticed by the attacker either if they are enraged, drunk, or on drugs.
So: You might kill someone with a knife, but it really hard to STOP someone by using a knife, unless you damage them SO MUCH that they cannot continue to attack. If you are slashing, that's a lot of slashes.
Cops show up, guy on the floor with 15 slash wounds, blood everywhere, you are standing there knife in hand..."He attacked me, officer, honest!"
....you may be telling the truth, but it is going to be a hard sell.
I carry a pocket tool daily, and as a last-ditch defensive tool, it's there. But....I really wouldn't suggest it for anyone's primary self-defense tool. As someone has already said, there are normally lots of things lying around bars and such that make perfectly good tools that will work better.
Here's the real way to bar fight:
http://youtu.be/LT3g51f25qo (http://youtu.be/LT3g51f25qo)
(Not serious. And seriously, don't get in bar fights. 99.9999% of them are between stupid drunk people whose friends should have stuffed them into a car and taken them home long ago.)
Getting back to the OP: No, there aren't any laws regarding OC in bars. :)
Oh my god that bouncer video was amazing. Every time he yelled "boom kick in the groin" it just made me laugh. Sure, good move, but his entuasiam about that groin kick was amazing.
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Oh my god that bouncer video was amazing. Every time he yelled "boom kick in the groin" it just made me laugh. Sure, good move, but his entuasiam about that groin kick was amazing.
Bas Rutten is hilarious---he's quite a character. He is also an extremely skilled fighter. If you get bored, look up some of his knockout highlight videos. Amazing amount of power in his strikes, and some SERIOUSLY good fundamental movement.
That video was an edited clip (obviously) from a fighting/self-defense video he made awhile ago. The original video itself has some really good stuff in it, along with a LOT of hilarious comments. (Yeah, some of the stuff isn't applicable to self-defense, but it is still a good video.)
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Not sure about pepper spray, but it will probably be considered lethal force if you hit someone over the head with a bar.
Three nazis walk into a BAR