NFOA MEMBERS FORUM
General Categories => Laws and Legislation => Topic started by: Tulkas on February 10, 2012, 01:27:07 PM
-
Hello,
I hold a federal C&R license, enjoy collecting and studying military pistols from World War II and earlier and have recently moved to Nebraska from another state. In shopping at a local pawn shop I discovered that a "permit" is required to purchase a handgun. A little research found Nebraska Revised Statutes 69-2403 and 69-2404 and onwards. This begs some questions:
1. What exactly does the certificate required by 69-2404 certify?
2. How does this certification differ from a permit?
3. Why should a person beg permission to exercise a right?
4. Does this requirement violate the "shall not be infringed" clause of the US Constitution, Amendment II?
Best Regards,
Tulkas
-
Oh, phooey,
It appears that the "Subject" is too long for this web-based ... Anyway, I am asking about Nebraska Revised Statute 69-2403, which may be found at <http://nebraskalegislature.gov/laws/statutes.php?statute=69-2403>.
Best Regards,
Tulkas
-
Tulkas:
First of all, a sincere welcome to Nebraska. It's a Great State. Nice people. (I'm a transplanted Missourian for some now.)
Moving on to Your Inquiry..........
To purchase a handgun in Nebraska, you must first go to your own county sheriff's office. Ask for forms for a Firearms Purchase Certificate. [Douglas County calls it thusly: Firearms Purchase Certificate. It's really a handgun purchase certificate.] You'll need your Nebraska driver's license to show residence.
You must have this certificate/card/"permit" to purchase a handgun in Nebraska [except for below]. Usually it is issued while you wait, after a standard NICS background check. It will cost $5.00. It certifies only that the holder did not have a criminal record which prohibits handgun ownership at the time of issue.
Exception to FPC requirement: If you have a Nebraska Concealed Handgun Permit, you do not need the FPC. CHP supersedes the FPC. However, you cannot apply for the NE CHP until you have lived in Nebraska 180 days.
You'll need to show either an FPC or a CHP whenever you purchase a handgun.
If you live in Omaha or bring your handguns into Omaha city limits, you must immediately register the handgun with the Chief of Police. $15.00/gun. There is no official grace period. Or else the handgun is subject to seizure and you are subject to a firearms violation. And you will NOT then be eligible for a CHP for the next 10 years.
Once you have a NE CHP, you no longer need to register your handguns with the Omaha Chief of Police.
That's about it.
Like I said, Welcome to Nebraska.
sfg
[PS: Re infringement of your rights. Of course this stuff is all an infringement. Your gun rights are under constant, relentless infringement. Yes. Indeed. Absolutely. No question. Goes without saying. Constant vigilance is required just to stay even.]
-
Tulkas, to understand this "Certificate" you need to look a bit at it's history.
This was put in place before the Brady Bill and background checks became law. Since that time there have been some changes, and even an attempt to do away with it. The attempt to do away failed because most firearms owners and dealers in Nebraska support the certificate. It is not always possible to call the ATF to do a background check at gun shows etc., and we all like to take our purchases home with us when we buy them.
Why is this not a "Permit" though it is very similar it is not required to have one to own a handgun, all this really is is a certificate that say's you have passed a NICS
check and is required to purchase a handgun. There is 3 other items that can be used; a Federal Firearms Dealer License (a C&R should work at least for C&R eligible purchases at a place that deals C&R), a Concealed Carry Permit, or certification of being a Peace Officer.
With the failures of the NICS check, and the lack of good communications in area's of the state, this card gives the person trying to make a purchase the ability to avoid a lot of hassle. With the small cost of $5.00 (possibly going up to $10) most feel it is worth it to leave it on the books, and is even a smaller infringement upon their rights than trying to get a NICS check done. By have the "Certificate" you may purchase any firearm without the need to have a NICS check done, the ATF accepts it in place of one.
If the NICS check was done away with I think everyone would back doing away with this, but until then it is the lesser of evils.
-
Tulkas:
First of all, a sincere welcome to Nebraska. It's a Great State. Nice people. (I'm a transplanted Missourian for some now.)
Thanks very much for the response and the welcome. :)
Moving on to Your Inquiry..........
To purchase a handgun in Nebraska, you must first go to your own county sheriff's office. Ask for forms for a Firearms Purchase Certificate.
<snip>
That's what causes the heartburn since it smacks of begging permission to exercise a right. It also seems to duplicate the BATFE instant background check initiated by Form 4473, except that the information on the Certificate could be three years out of date.
[My emphasis]
It certifies only that the holder did not have a criminal record which prohibits handgun ownership at the time of issue.
What is to say that the Certificate holder didn't lose his mind three months ago, has been sent for evaluation but hasn't surrendered the Certificate?
Exception to FPC requirement: If you have a Nebraska Concealed Handgun Permit, you do not need the FPC. CHP supersedes the FPC. However, you cannot apply for the NE CHP until you have lived in Nebraska 180 days.
Nice but I have no desire to carry, except to and from the range. BTW the law http://nebraskalegislature.gov/laws/statutes.php?statute=69-2428 (http://nebraskalegislature.gov/laws/statutes.php?statute=69-2428) refers to it as a permit not a license. There is big difference.
If you live in Omaha or bring your handguns into Omaha city limits,
<snip>
I won't be going to Omaha except possibly for an evening at King Fong's. :)
Like I said, Welcome to Nebraska.
Thanks again!
[PS: Re infringement of your rights. Of course this stuff is all an infringement. Your gun rights are under constant, relentless infringement. Yes. Indeed. Absolutely. No question. Goes without saying. Constant vigilance is required just to stay even.]
So, are we doing anything about these infringements aside from sitting here complaining about them? How about putting something into motion to repeal these laws and fire some of the hired help (legislators) who promote them?
Best Regards,
Tulkas
-
Tulkas.......
So, are we doing anything about these infringements aside from sitting here complaining about them? How about putting something into motion to repeal these laws and fire some of the hired help (legislators) who promote them?
Watch this Forum.
It's a Hotbed of Activists. Who get Good Things Done.
You're welcome to help.
sfg
-
Tulkas, to understand this "Certificate" you need to look a bit at it's history.
Okay, thanks.
This was put in place before the Brady Bill and background checks became law.
Okay, if I understand you correctly, in the early sixties Nebraska was ahead of the game in requiring a background check of some kind. The legislature of that time deserve congratulations.
Since that time there have been some changes, and even an attempt to do away with it. The attempt to do away failed because most firearms owners and dealers in Nebraska support the certificate. It is not always possible to call the ATF to do a background check at gun shows etc., and we all like to take our purchases home with us when we buy them.
Let's put the Constitutional aspect of this permit/certificate aside for the moment. In this day of a cell phone in every pocket you won't find a gun show or dealer who can't do an instant check with the ATF. The last time I purchased a pistol at a gun show the dealer used his cell phone to call ATF and had a "proceed" in about five minutes; and this was ten years ago.
I don't understand why you say that most firearms owners and dealers in Nebraska support the certificate. I can think of several reasons why I wouldn't support it, beginning with the fact that the information the certificate is based on could be as much as three years out of date. If I were in the retail gun business I would get an ATF background check for every sale.
Why is this not a "Permit" though it is very similar it is not required to have one to own a handgun,
I disagree that it isn't a "permit". The law, as written, http://nebraskalegislature.gov/laws/statutes.php?statute=69-2404 (http://nebraskalegislature.gov/laws/statutes.php?statute=69-2404) says "Any person desiring to purchase, lease, rent, or receive transfer of a handgun shall apply with the chief of police or sheriff of the applicant's place of residence for a certificate." Note the apply, which seems to be the same as to "beg permission". The next section, 69-2405, says that the sheriff shall issue or deny the certificate within three days. The NICS check doesn't take nearly that long. :)
all this really is is a certificate that say's you have passed a NICS
check and is required to purchase a handgun.
The same NICS check that a firearms dealer can get by telephone? The dealer doesn't charge $5.00 for it either.
There is 3 other items that can be used; a Federal Firearms Dealer License (a C&R should work at least for C&R eligible purchases at a place that deals C&R), a Concealed Carry Permit, or certification of being a Peace Officer.
I got the C&R for convenience while traveling and for buying guns on-line. It shouldn't be necessary to use it in the state of one's residence.
I don't need the expense and hassle of getting a CCP, which btw should be a CCL since a person must demonstrate proficiency to obtain one.
I've never been a peace officer except for a stint in the Air Police many years ago. :o
With the failures of the NICS check, and the lack of good communications in area's of the state, this card gives the person trying to make a purchase the ability to avoid a lot of hassle. With the small cost of $5.00 (possibly going up to $10) most feel it is worth it to leave it on the books, and is even a smaller infringement upon their rights than trying to get a NICS check done. By have the "Certificate" you may purchase any firearm without the need to have a NICS check done, the ATF accepts it in place of one.
Again, I disagree. That may have been a good argument 40 years ago but it doesn't hold water in 2012. I believe that the permit/certification is a bad law for several reasons: 1. It violates the US Constitution, Amendment II in that it requires a person to beg permission to exercise a right. This is infringement on its face. 2. It is unenforceable. If my brother, or someone whom I know equally well, wants to buy my engraved Mauser I could easily sell it to him with or without any certificate. 3. A permit/certificate issued nearly three years ago is, IMO, worthless. Things change.
If the NICS check was done away with I think everyone would back doing away with this, but until then it is the lesser of evils.
Don't misunderstand, I have nothing against keeping handguns away from felons or the feeble-minded by way of background checks. I've passed many of them, hope to pass many more. Not in Nebraska though because I decline to beg permission to exercise a right. That's a shame, there's a gun dealer here who has a Mauser C96 I would love to buy and I think he could use the money. Too bad but we'll both have to live with the situation for the present.
Best Regards,
Tulkas
-
Tulkas.......
Watch this Forum.
I'm watching, I'm watching!
It's a Hotbed of Activists. Who get Good Things Done.
You're welcome to help.
Okay, what would you like me to do?
Tulkas
-
Hello,
I hold a federal C&R license, enjoy collecting and studying military pistols from World War II and earlier and have recently moved to Nebraska from another state. In shopping at a local pawn shop I discovered that a "permit" is required to purchase a handgun. A little research found Nebraska Revised Statutes 69-2403 and 69-2404 and onwards. This begs some questions:
1. What exactly does the certificate required by 69-2404 certify?
2. How does this certification differ from a permit?
3. Why should a person beg permission to exercise a right?
4. Does this requirement violate the "shall not be infringed" clause of the US Constitution, Amendment II?
Best Regards,
Tulkas
Heller v District of Columbia
The Court’s opinion should not be taken to cast doubt on longstanding prohibitions on the possession of firearms by felons and the mentally ill, or laws forbidding the carrying of firearms in sensitive places such as schools and government buildings, or laws imposing conditions and qualifications on the commercial sale of arms.”
It would seem that SCOTUS has ruled that
" The Court’s opinion should not be taken to cast doubt on longstanding...laws imposing conditions and qualifications on the commercial sale of arms.”
I guess we can ***** about it, but there is not much we can do locally to get that changed. In my opinion, The NICS check is more of an infringement than the purchase permit system Nebraska currently uses. Most of our members agreed when this issue was last debated.
So if you are asking when the NFOA is going to take on the removal of the purchase permit, my answer, as a director, would be that it is way way down the list on my agenda.
-
Does a C&R license like a full FFL required re-issue at at new location to be valid, since you moved here?
Without the NE handgun purchase card, or Concealed Carry permit, you will have to wait for the NICS instant check for every in state purchase, we all know there is nothing instant about the instant check.
With either permit, you are in/out of the gun store without any delays.
-
Does an out of state CCW permit that Nebraska honors count in place of a purchase permit?
-
KY57
Out-of-state person can't purchase in-state without going through an FFL. Actually, two FFLs: This state and the out-of-state.
Answer: No.
If someone is actually an in-state person using an out-of-state CHP/CCW license/permit, whatever......
Still: No.
sfg
-
KY57
Out-of-state person can't purchase in-state without going through an FFL. Actually, two FFLs: This state and the out-of-state.
Answer: No.
If someone is actually an in-state person using an out-of-state CHP/CCW license/permit, whatever......
Still: No.
sfg
OK thanks. Looks like its time to get a purchase permit.
-
Does a C&R license like a full FFL required re-issue at at new location to be valid, since you moved here?
Yes, within ten days of moving IIRC.
Without the NE handgun purchase card, or Concealed Carry permit, you will have to wait for the NICS instant check for every in state purchase, we all know there is nothing instant about the instant check.
That hasn't been my experience. In my last three purchases, one at a gun show and two at a local pawn shop, the NICS check took five minutes or less.
With either permit, you are in/out of the gun store without any delays.
I've found that local laws are more of a hindrance.
Regards,
Tulkas
-
Heller v District of Columbia
It would seem that SCOTUS has ruled that
" The Court’s opinion should not be taken to cast doubt on longstanding...laws imposing conditions and qualifications on the commercial sale of arms.”
Which does not address the present question: "Does the permit/certificate required by Nebraska Revised Statute 69-2404 violate the US Constitution?" IMO it does, on its face.
I guess we can ***** about it, but there is not much we can do locally to get that changed.
We can do more than *****. We can start by using reasoned arguments against retaining this law in letters, e-mails and telephone calls to the hired help in Lincoln.
In my opinion, The NICS check is more of an infringement than the purchase permit system Nebraska currently uses. Most of our members agreed when this issue was last debated.
I disagree with this. I'm sure we would agree that it's a good idea to bar felons and people with mental problems from possessing firearms. A background check attempts to do this and does not infringe on anything except a few minutes of a prospective purchasers time.
So if you are asking when the NFOA is going to take on the removal of the purchase permit, my answer, as a director, would be that it is way way down the list on my agenda.
While help from NFOA, either as an organization or from individual members, would be appreciated, it isn't essential to the goal.
Best Regards,
Tulkas
-
Tulkas while I welcome your opinion, The everyone has a cell phone argument does not work everywhere here in Nebraska, there are parts of the state with little cell coverage, and services that do not work in some places.
I happen to be one of the people that the 5 minutes or less to go through a NICS check does not work for, if I am making a purchase without either a handgun purchase certificate or concealed carry permit it will take 3 days for the NICS check to go through. There is a convicted felon with the same name and a social security number that has one digit different from mine, of course there is also a NSP officer with the same name and a birth date that is with in a couple of weeks of mine. Before a NICS check goes through for me they always take extra time to verify which one of us they are processing. They have 3 days to process a NICS check.
-
While help from NFOA, either as an organization or from individual members, would be appreciated, it isn't essential to the goal.
Best Regards,
Tulkas
Good Luck!
-
Tulkas while I welcome your opinion, The everyone has a cell phone argument does not work everywhere here in Nebraska, there are parts of the state with little cell coverage, and services that do not work in some places.
No doubt. How many gun shows or firearms retailers are located in those areas? Are those areas served by land lines?
I happen to be one of the people that the 5 minutes or less to go through a NICS check does not work for, if I am making a purchase without either a handgun purchase certificate or concealed carry permit it will take 3 days for the NICS check to go through. There is a convicted felon with the same name and a social security number that has one digit different from mine, of course there is also a NSP officer with the same name and a birth date that is with in a couple of weeks of mine. Before a NICS check goes through for me they always take extra time to verify which one of us they are processing. They have 3 days to process a NICS check.
My, aren't you fortunate? ;) If the requirement for a purchase certificate were repealed you could still rely on your CCP or, if worst came to worst, apply to the State Patrol for a "good guy" identification and always keep them with you. Your case is rare, if not unique. While the purchase certificate works for you, it is an unnecessary imposition for many of us.
No matter, I'll just shop for additions to my collection elsewhere while I work to repeal the Nebraska purchase certificate requirement.
Tulkas
-
Good Luck!
Thanks.
I don't expect overnight success since it seems that I have to convince some people. That's okay, I can be pretty stubborn if I have to be.
Tulkas
-
Just because the Supreme Court made those general statements doesn't mean that the purchase certificate is constitutional. Remember, the court case was in regards to Washington's DC's ban on handguns and the requirements that firearms need be unloaded and triggerlocked or disassembled within the home. The court only addressed those issues.
I firmly believe that Nebraska's requirement to first apply and then obtain a handgun purchase certificate in order to exercise a constitutional right is unconstitutional. On top of that there is a $5 tax we must pay. If its a right then I need not pay the state a fee/tax in order to exercise my right. The state MUST guarantee my rights. This tax will of course continue to rise, and I can definitely see LB 919 ,which proposes to make it $10, pass since the counties are complaining about "hardship" and that the $5 fee doesn't cover the background check cost.
Ok so if a gun dealer can make a quick call to NICS and not charge customers for that call why does the government want $10 from us?
And regardless of what the answer is, if there is a cost involved the govt needs to eat it. If they are going to place all sorts of requirements in order to exercise a constitutional right then the responsiblity for the costs should fall on them, since it is governments job to guarantee rights. Besides we are the one paying for it with our taxes in the end. But here they are actually charging us twice: once taking our tax dollars and twice charging us for exercise of rights.
They have already said that $10 isn't even enough to cover the "cost". So why is there a cost and one that continues to become more expensive when we can do the same check at the gun dealer for free?
-
Once you agree that the second amendment can be limited in its application to convicted felons, which many here agree with, I think you almost have to allow for a way to verify the eligibility of a purchaser. That's what the NICS system does, but it isn't perfect. A lot of Nebraskans prefer getting the purchase permit once every few years as opposed to a NICS check every time you make a firearm purchase. Should it be free -- yes, if it's required. My personal preference would be to make the permit optional and keep the fee. You either go through a NICS check or present a permit. That way those who don't want the hassle of a NICS check can avoid it, but the cost doesn't fall on all the taxpayers.
As a practical matter, this isn't a hot-button issue for most gun owners in the state and would not get any traction in the unicameral. I personally don't think it's a fight the NFOA should engage in at this time. There are too many other things to go after in the legislature.
-
Once you agree that the second amendment can be limited in its application to convicted felons, which many here agree with,
If a person is convicted of a felony he loses his civil rights, including the right to keep and bear arms. In short, he is no longer one of the people referred to in Amendment II " ... the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed."
I think you almost have to allow for a way to verify the eligibility of a purchaser. That's what the NICS system does, but it isn't perfect.
Agreed.
A lot of Nebraskans prefer getting the purchase permit once every few years as opposed to a NICS check every time you make a firearm purchase. Should it be free -- yes, if it's required.
Yes, it's required. From http://nebraskalegislature.gov/laws/statutes.php?statute=69-2404 (http://nebraskalegislature.gov/laws/statutes.php?statute=69-2404): "Any person ... shall apply ..." Here's where the problem lies: the law infringes on Amendment II by placing a precondition on exercising the right guaranteed by the Amendment.
My personal preference would be to make the permit optional and keep the fee. You either go through a NICS check or present a permit. That way those who don't want the hassle of a NICS check can avoid it, but the cost doesn't fall on all the taxpayers.
I wouldn't have a problem with that.
As a practical matter, this isn't a hot-button issue for most gun owners in the state and would not get any traction in the unicameral.
It isn't a hot-button issue? I disagree. When people allow a freedom, or a right, to be taken from them without protest then they are cooperating in their own demise as a free people.
I personally don't think it's a fight the NFOA should engage in at this time. There are too many other things to go after in the legislature.
Could you mention one or two of the "other things"? I'm curious to know what you believe to be important.
Best Regards,
Tulkas
-
I think a couple other things that are more worthy of the fight right now off the top of my head are uniform signage and the victim protection act. Those are the two most important issues right now in my opinion.
-
I think a couple other things that are more worthy of the fight right now off the top of my head are uniform signage and the victim protection act. Those are the two most important issues right now in my opinion.
Okay, thanks. Could you post pointers to these bills please?
Tulkas
-
Okay, thanks. Could you post pointers to these bills please?
Tulkas
http://nebraskafirearms.org/forum/index.php/board,134.0.html (http://nebraskafirearms.org/forum/index.php/board,134.0.html)
This should get you there.
-
http://nebraskafirearms.org/forum/index.php/board,134.0.html (http://nebraskafirearms.org/forum/index.php/board,134.0.html)
This should get you there.
Ummmm... Okay, I dug around in http://nebraskalegislature.gov/bills/ (http://nebraskalegislature.gov/bills/) and finally came up with LB88 (uniform signage) and LB920 (victim protection). Is this correct?
My thought is that neither bill should have a problem being passed. I suppose we have different ideas of what are important issues.
Tulkas
-
LB88 and LB518 are the signage bills
LB298 (dead) and LB804 are VPA
LR40CA is very important
LB807 is making some important changes to who may get a CCW
Those are the priorities right now, not nessacarily in that order. There are also things being worked on that support some of this issues in other bills.
LB920 I hope is dead. I can not support a bill that would take away a persons rights without even a hearing.
-
For people who routinely get a delay for what ever reason, NICS will issue an identification number that your dealer calls in when the NICS is done, this identifies you differenct from the other mutts with the same name and worse background.
-
LB88 and LB518 are the signage bills
LB298 (dead) and LB804 are VPA
LR40CA is very important
LB807 is making some important changes to who may get a CCW
Ahhh, that's better. Thank you very much.
Those are the priorities right now, not nessacarily in that order. There are also things being worked on that support some of this issues in other bills.
LB920 I hope is dead. I can not support a bill that would take away a persons rights without even a hearing.
Did we have a hearing on the mandatory purchase certificate bill? :P Sorry, I couldn't resist.
T.
-
Did we have a hearing on the mandatory purchase certificate bill?
T.
Hearing on LB919 was Feb 8th... the only firearms related item up for consideration that was the Purchase permit fee change from 5 dollars to 10 dollars
-
Hearing on LB919 was Feb 8th... the only firearms related item up for consideration that was the Purchase permit fee change from 5 dollars to 10 dollars
Okay, thanks.
T.