NFOA MEMBERS FORUM
General Categories => Newsworthy => Topic started by: omaharj on March 23, 2012, 07:23:15 PM
-
If the story being reported is substantially true
This case has Nothing to do with Castle Doctrine except the police are using it as a scapegoat. Florida's statute does NOT PROTECT YOU if YOU initiate the conflict. It appears overwhelming evidence was ignored by the police. Being a Neighborhood Watch Officer gives no exceptional protection. It appears an undisciplined vigilante is being protected by the police (The why I can only speculate,I have my suspicions,but will wait for facts). If anybody asks me, I will explain Florida law (which includes Stand Your Ground) and how this is an issue of a police coverup trying to smear Castle Doctrine as a scapegoat. I believe this will end up going in front of a jury and his chasing of the victim will eliminate a Castle Doctrine defense. I believe the antis will try to make this about Castle Doctrine----IT IS NOT....There is a police coverup,don't let people turn it into Stand your Ground's fault. I look forward to reading this thread in 3 months,hehheh. RJ
-
I've listened to the 911 recordings....even if 1/2 of editing for content, splicing or anything consipiratorial... Mr. Zimmerman belongs in a hole in the bottom of the deepest darkest prison.... and yes, I know one is innocent until proven guilty in this country, but this young lad should still be a live (even if he "looks like he could have been my son" - President Obama).
-
In case you haven't seen it on the news (and you probably won't), according to the evidence Mr. Zimmerman was retreating toward his vehicle when the altercation occurred. His nose was bloodied as was the back of his head. He had grass stains on his back. This is why he was not arrested.
Is Zimmerman entirely without fault? Certainly not. However, it seems premature to suggest that Zimmerman was unjustified in the shooting - particularly, based on the evidence (as opposed to the inflammatory stories being told my the MSM).
It is certainly unfortunate that a young man is dead. It is also unfortunate that the anti's are turning this into a witch-hunt of law-abiding, firearm-owning citizens. With Holder now involved, it seems unlikely that we will ever know the truth.
-
I've listened to the 911 recordings....even if 1/2 of editing for content, splicing or anything consipiratorial... Mr. Zimmerman belongs in a hole in the bottom of the deepest darkest prison.... and yes, I know one is innocent until proven guilty in this country, but this young lad should still be a live (even if he "looks like he could have been my son" - President Obama).
If it turns out that Trayvon Martin was on top of Mr. Zimmerman while he was down on the ground on his back and being punched in the face and head, then I believe he had every right to shoot him. I don't care if he was 17yrs old or if he was lighter than Mr. Zimmerman. A fist is just as much a deadly weapon as any other. And in order to use deadly force you don't have to necessarily fear death but also serious bodily injury. I'd say being punched in the head is a serious bodily injury as all it takes is one blow to the head to kill you.
I also heard that Mr. Zimmerman had a broken nose. So before all of you people start judging, please wait for the facts to come in.
-
I hope that the FBI investigation can validate the Sandford PD and restore the public confidence
in the agency that has been destroyed by the anti-gun, liberal media and politicians.
-
Interesting...sounds like there is a witness who says Martin attacked Zimmerman.
http://www.myfoxtampabay.com/dpp/news/state/witness-martin-attacked-zimmerman-03232012 (http://www.myfoxtampabay.com/dpp/news/state/witness-martin-attacked-zimmerman-03232012)
Not that it will probably matter, this case has become so politically charged Zimmerman is all but convicted.
-
I certainly agree with Mr. Zimmerman's right to protect himself 110%. My "issue" is his it seems he was asking for trouble. Again, I was not there, don't know all the details, and it sounds like Trayvon was not an altar boy in the slightest. That being said, being a good witness a safe distance away appears to have been an option for Mr. Zimmerman. Kind like the oft asked question when I've taught a class..."What kind of gun would you take to a gunfght?" My reply, "None, I would stay home that day."
-
"What kind of gun would you take to a gunfght?" My reply, "None, I would stay home that day."
I think that sums it all up nicely. Even if Martin did attack Zimmerman, I don't think Zimmerman made good choices from what I've heard. Even if it's self defense it sounds like he put himself into that position.
-
I think that sums it all up nicely. Even if Martin did attack Zimmerman, I don't think Zimmerman made good choices from what I've heard. Even if it's self defense it sounds like he put himself into that position.
Based upon the facts in evidence, it does appear that Zimmerman made at least one bad choice - he left his vehicle to follow Martin on foot.
One bad choice is the only thing standing between any of us and the feces-storm in which Zimmerman finds himself. If I recall correctly, we had a member who posted about some similarly questionable choices just a week or so ago. Fortunately for him, no one ended up dead.
-
I shouldn't be surprised....but I am a bit. Opinions vary widely. As much as the media skews things,there is usually some facts behind the stories Here's one from the LA times. I find it hard to believe they make it all up out of thin air. The FoxNews story (Brian's link) presents the other side.
http://www.latimes.com/news/nation/nationnow/la-na-nn-george-zimmerman-20120323,0,6326075.story (http://www.latimes.com/news/nation/nationnow/la-na-nn-george-zimmerman-20120323,0,6326075.story)
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2012/03/22/trayvon-martin-case-not-as-conclusive-as-people-think-says-legal-expert/ (http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2012/03/22/trayvon-martin-case-not-as-conclusive-as-people-think-says-legal-expert/) and another view
...and Rick Santorum's view (according to the Washington Post) http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/election-2012/post/trayvon-martin-case-has-been-poorly-handled-santorum-says/2012/03/23/gIQAjcB5VS_blog.html (http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/election-2012/post/trayvon-martin-case-has-been-poorly-handled-santorum-says/2012/03/23/gIQAjcB5VS_blog.html)
-
A lesson we can all take away from this is that if you're involved in a self defense shooting there's a very good chance you will be tried in the court of public opinion, and other people WILL try to use you to further their political agenda. It's almost like the actual investigation and possible trial is just an afterthought.
-
I'm staying the hell out of this. There is too much mud in the water to know what's what.
-
Sad to say it but Santorum and Gingrich are talking too soon and will look like idiots as well as make the law look bad if Zimmerman is exonerated. I hate it when these politicians have to go and put in their 2 cents into this and judge people when they don't have all the facts. It's a shame that Mitt Romney was the one with the best response:
“What happened to Trayvon Martin is a tragedy,” Romney said. “There needs to be a thorough investigation that reassures the public that justice is carried out with impartiality and integrity.”
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/election-2012/post/trayvon-martin-case-has-been-poorly-handled-santorum-says/2012/03/23/gIQAjcB5VS_blog.html (http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/election-2012/post/trayvon-martin-case-has-been-poorly-handled-santorum-says/2012/03/23/gIQAjcB5VS_blog.html)
-
There's a small but very important point I want to make here. If Zimmerman is found guilty or innocent wasn't my point in this thread. It was about him not being charged and using castle doctrine-stand your ground, as the reason for not charging him. At best, his following and confronting called for a complete investigation. The police opened and shut this case and used Castle Doctrine as the reason. They,(the police) are falsely using Castle Doctrine to not charge him. Perhaps there is a connection between Zimmerman and the Samford legal/law community. Perhaps someone wants to destroy Castle Doctrine by declaring it "a license to shoot up the street>" That was the argument Brenda Council used last year. Perhaps that's a tactic being employed in Florida. ....perhaps it's a combination of many things.
Defining the line where castle Doctrine applies will determine the future of self defense laws. RJ
-
May be the moral of this story is - if you're going to defend yourself, you sure as hell better not do it against someone of a different, protected race.
-
May be the moral of this story is - if you're going to defend yourself, you sure as hell better not do it against someone of a different, protected race.
Nick you hit the problem with this case on the head, because of the race issue it has become bigger that it should be.
A quote from a discussion group of firearms organization leaders that I belong to:
If, in fact it is determined that Zimmerman was not justified in the use of deadly force, Stand Your Ground will be the law that ultimately convicts him.
Zimmerman claims that Trayvon Martin attacked him. If not for Stand Your Ground, Martin would have been required to run from the man following him as his girlfriend advised him to do by phone.
Instead, Martin turned and confronted the man following him. This is corroborated by Martin's girlfriend. By all accounts, Zimmerman's and Trayvon Martin's girlfriend's, Martin appears to have rightfully Stood His Ground against a man he was reasonably in fear of.
Sean Caranna
Executive Director
Florida Carry, Inc.
There is a lot of information floating around out there that is false or out of context, and facts that are not known. Making a judgment either way would be out of place, but which ever way this goes Stand Your Ground will play a role.
-
I don't think that is correct. Stand your ground may have allowed Martin to defend himself, but if he had done so without that law in place, it would have made no difference for Zimmerman if he, in fact, was the aggressor. In that situation, you would have had at worst for Martin, a "mutual combat" situation where neither was justified.
-
Obama has already weighed in on this: “If I had a son he would have looked like Trayvon Martin.”
No matter how it turns out, I have a feeling Zimmerman is a gone’er.
-
I think Zimmerman condemned himself in the court of public opinion when the 911 dispatcher told him he didn't need to follow the kid. Obviously he did, obviously he got out of his vehicle at some point, and obviously it went downhill from there. Maybe he was getting whipped up on by a 17 year old. If only he hadn't followed and exited his vehicle this story wouldn't even be news. Regardless, it is a tragic event.
-
Obama has already weighed in on this: “If I had a son he would have looked like Trayvon Martin.”
No matter how it turns out, I have a feeling Zimmerman is a gone’er.
The Black Panthers are offering a reward for his "capture".
Yes, from what I've heard I think he probably caused the confrontation, whether or not he actually started the physical assault. He may be guilty of murder, or just manslaughter, or just being stupid. It just eats at me that scumbags like Al Sharpton and Mikhail Muhammad are using the death of a teenager to push their own hate-based agenda. What a sad country we have become.
-
Like the last LEO "issue" Obama stepped in i.e. Henry Louis Gates and the Cambridge P.D., I think an invite to Trayvon's parents and Mr. Zimmerman for a beer at the White House is in order.
-
What a mess. It would seem that those who have worked so hard to make the point that society is responsbile for the actions of an individual and therefore cannot be held responsible for what they have done now want to hold some one accountable for his actions. Talk about chickens coming home to roost.
-
More details that paint a clearer picture:
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/03/24/us-usa-florida-shooting-idUSBRE82N0CU20120324 (http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/03/24/us-usa-florida-shooting-idUSBRE82N0CU20120324)
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2120504/Trayvon-Martin-case-He-suspended-times-caught-burglary-tool.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2120504/Trayvon-Martin-case-He-suspended-times-caught-burglary-tool.html)
http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-03-26/news/os-trayvon-martin-zimmerman-account-20120326_1_miami-schools-punch-unarmed-black-teenager (http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-03-26/news/os-trayvon-martin-zimmerman-account-20120326_1_miami-schools-punch-unarmed-black-teenager)
http://abcnews.go.com/US/george-zimmermans-attorney-friend-speak-trayvon-martin-incident/story?id=15999256#.T3ILu9UyLVZ (http://abcnews.go.com/US/george-zimmermans-attorney-friend-speak-trayvon-martin-incident/story?id=15999256#.T3ILu9UyLVZ)
http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/cutline/trayvon-martin-shooting-details-emerge-facebook-twitter-accounts-180103647.html (http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/cutline/trayvon-martin-shooting-details-emerge-facebook-twitter-accounts-180103647.html)
http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/26/2714778/thousands-expected-at-trayvon.html (http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/26/2714778/thousands-expected-at-trayvon.html)
http://www.thesmokinggun.com/documents/trayvon-martin-trademarks-769123 (http://www.thesmokinggun.com/documents/trayvon-martin-trademarks-769123)
-
It will be interesting to see the timeline. Was Zimmerman already out of his vehicle when the dispatcher told him that he didn't need to follow Martin? If so, did he turn back shortly thereafter to return to his vehicle? Did Zimmerman ever confront Martin or was it the other way around as Zimmerman has stated?
It seems that an investigation has been ongoing but that Zimmerman was not arrested based upon the fact that the evidence corroborated his version of events.
-
At least somebody believes in Mr. Zimmerman. Actually this case isn't really about Mr. Zimmerman, its about politics. They (the media, and the leftist population) have made this about racism (which it isn't) and about the Stand Your Ground law (which is not at fault, it will either convict Zimmerman or clear him).
All the usual anti-gun people have come out of the woodwork (Obama, Biden, Schumer, Bobby Rush) and called for a review of "gun" laws. Even though stand your ground has nothing to do with guns but the use of force.
http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-03-30/news/os-george-zimmerman-lawyers-offer-10000-20120330_1_shooting-death-legal-expenses-legal-defense (http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-03-30/news/os-george-zimmerman-lawyers-offer-10000-20120330_1_shooting-death-legal-expenses-legal-defense)
-
Whoever wrote this article should be banished from this country....
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,2110471,00.html?pcd=pw-sl (http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,2110471,00.html?pcd=pw-sl)
-
Double Standard: Black Men Named Trayvon Get Killed all the Time, But The Left Doesn't Care (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WpUAFGqwiJY#ws)
-
http://gma.yahoo.com/police-car-shot-trayvon-martins-neighborhood-184110824--abc-news-topstories.html (http://gma.yahoo.com/police-car-shot-trayvon-martins-neighborhood-184110824--abc-news-topstories.html)
Looks like the media will get what they wanted all along.
-
Sounds like charges may be coming tonight from what I've been reading. The prosecutor is having a news conference this evening.
-
Murder 2nd degree
-
I hope they release what they have for evidence that made them decide to press charges, or if they just caved to the pressure.
-
Special prosecutor was talking like they don't prosecute based on pressure from outside, but rather based only on the evidence required to get a conviction
-
Lift some weights, learn some wing chun (or Hapkido), it can a long way in avoiding this type of thing. So you dont get knocked on your back and have to shoot someone off you who is unarmed.
I do side with zimmerman though, and I think he will get off but because of how he handled it he will be drug through hell.
-
Lift some weights, learn some wing chun (or Hapkido), it can a long way in avoiding this type of thing. So you dont get knocked on your back and have to shoot someone off you who is unarmed.
I do side with zimmerman though, and I think he will get off but because of how he handled it he will be drug through hell.
I agree, this seems to be pretty close to what Mr. Zimmerman has gotten himself into. Only he knows if it was worth it or necessary to save his life. What we who go armed need to take from all of this is that a situation we deem grave enough to deploy our weapons will more than likely result in a life changing event. Your life will never be the same again. This could be true if you dont pull your gun too. If you have never been assaulted you dont know what it can do to your mental and physical condition. We can only hope we make the right decision and it was worth all that will come afterward.
-
IF,the roles were reversed and a white kid was killed by a black man this would'nt even be in the news,would it.
-
BTW I know its not feasible for everyone to learn some non deadly self defense, but if you plan to play cop, you better. The kid wasnt that big, he was tall sure but he was scrawny. I had a big minority kid attack me in North O few years ago when I worked at metro College, during lunch, because I wouldnt give a dollar. He was intimidating looking as I a m only 5'8". However, I lift weight alot, esp legs, and I was able to easily over power him and lock him up after he attacked. After I let go and pushed him away he ran off with me keeping his pride.
He could of hurt me but the biggest risk was him getting my gun. made me think a little if carrying actually makes it safer or more dangerous. I still carry but its food for thought.
Kudos to my Don Hume for holding onto my gun.
-
I hope they release what they have for evidence that made them decide to press charges, or if they just caved to the pressure.
Its BS. They just caved to the pressure because they are afraid of a race riot. The Sanford Police department was forced to shut down the other day because 50 protesters locked arms and blocked access to the police department and the city just let it happen stating that people could do their business at city hall. Really?!!! Really?!!!!!!
They arrest abortion protesters all the time for blocking access to the facilities. These people are no different. They caused a govt building to shut down and didn't bother arresting them..........shows you how afraid they are of pissing off the dumb ignorant media fed mob of zombies.
-
I do side with zimmerman though, and I think he will get off but because of how he handled it he will be drug through hell.
On the contrary: He will be drug through hell because Trayvon Martin wasn't white & the city leadership and the state leadership is afraid of pissing off the racial bigots (you know those that only see that the color of Trayvon's skin was black).
-
Sorry, but I think you folks are missing the boat on this one. :o
Did Zimmerman kill T. Martin? Yes, obviously, he admits it. Was it justifiable? I can’t say, and neither can you, we were not there. We don’t know what was in his mind, we don’t know what the witnesses have to say, we are not sure who was attacking whom.
Whatever happened to “It’s better to be judged by 12 than to be carried by 6”? Mr. Zimmerman made a choice, and now he is getting his chance to have that choice judged based upon the law and by a jury of his peers. He is also being given the chance to get his side of the story out, by him, on the record and in public. Something that has pretty much been denied him by all the press jumping on board the “Racial” band wagon. I see this process as a good thing, not something to be despised or feared. Yes, it’s going to cost him a small fortune, but it seems that he has a competent attorney and I keep hearing about funds being set up for his legal defense. When you make a decision of this magnitude there is a price that must be paid, and not just in cash. Mr. Zimmerman made his choice, and now he is just beginning to find out what that price might be. I’d be happy to donate to his defense fund, should some enterprising person set one up.
Self Defense laws are still evolving in our country. We just finished one chapter here in our own state, and we didn’t get what we wanted. I have hope for the future, that we as armed citizens will be able to make these decisions appropriately and have the force of law behind us as long as we remain within the law when making our decision. In Florida they are charging Mr. Zimmerman, it’s how laws are tested. There will be a winner as well as a looser, and in the end someone will be happy about it and someone will be mad as hell about it. We know that day is coming now, Castle Doctrine is being tested in the courts of the state that has done more for gun rights than just about any other. IMO, that is a good place for this to happen.
I also see this as a learning opportunity for us, the NFOA. Depending on the outcome of Mr. Zimmerman’s trial we will know what areas of the law we can place emphasis on and which are a looser at the gate. For us here in Nebraska, I see this as a win no matter how Mr. Zimmerman’s trial turns out. We gain a better understanding of how Castle Doctrine is and should be applied, and the areas to avoid.
Ron
-
Sorry, but I think you folks are missing the boat on this one. :o
I can’t say, and neither can you, we were not there. We don’t know what was in his mind, we don’t know what the witnesses have to say, we are not sure who was attacking whom.
Whatever happened to “It’s better to be judged by 12 than to be carried by 6”? Mr. Zimmerman made a choice, and now he is getting his chance to have that choice judged based upon the law and by a jury of his peers.
1. Not sure how much you've been paying attention but we have heard what witnesses have said and it supports Mr. Zimmermans story. The evidence was also in support of Mr. Zimmerman's story. Have you read the police report? Therefore there was no probable cause for an arrest and Mr. Zimmerman should not have to go to court in order to defend himself. That's the whole premise of Castle Doctrine/Stand Your Ground, in that it shifts the burden of proof to the state to find probable cause in order to arrest him.
2. After all this media attention and prejudging by the public can you honestly say that there will be an impartial jury left anywhere in the country for him?! On top of that he's being tried in Sanford?!! Any other case of this magnitude he would be moved to a different jurisdiction so that there can be a fair trial.
-
I don't think he has any chance of a fair trial. I'm very suspicious that this indictment was politically motivated, as what I saw of the evidence as time went on seemed to support Mr. Zimmerman.
-
Did disparity of force exist? Better get Ayoob over there.
-
1. Not sure how much you've been paying attention but we have heard what witnesses have said and it supports Mr. Zimmermans story. The evidence was also in support of Mr. Zimmerman's story. Have you read the police report? Therefore there was no probable cause for an arrest and Mr. Zimmerman should not have to go to court in order to defend himself. That's the whole premise of Castle Doctrine/Stand Your Ground, in that it shifts the burden of proof to the state to find probable cause in order to arrest him.
2. After all this media attention and prejudging by the public can you honestly say that there will be an impartial jury left anywhere in the country for him?! On top of that he's being tried in Sanford?!! Any other case of this magnitude he would be moved to a different jurisdiction so that there can be a fair trial.
What I have learned in my years in and out of court rooms is that what a witness says under oath is often not what they have said in public. The “witnesses” I have watched on the national news channels have said quite a bit, both for and against Mr. Zimmerman, but until they are in a courtroom I consider it all “hot air”. Let’s wait until they are in the courtroom before judging their veracity.
“Probable Cause” or “Reasonable Belief” are legal issues that go far beyond the understanding of those outside of the legal community. Plenty of opinions, my own educated one included, but I don’t believe that anyone here has the information needed to make any claims about the legality of the determination of Probable Cause. As far as I know no one here in this forum was a party to the discussions concerning the issue of “Probable Cause” in the special prosecutor’s office. What I do know for a fact is that we don’t have all the information that those folks had when they made their decision, so I am not about to make a judgment on that discussion or that decision. They are professionals, and I respect them for it and expect them to act as professionals.
With the pre-court media attention I am of the opinion that it’s going to be a very difficult job to get an unbiased jury seated. Not impossible, just very very difficult. A change in venue isn’t really going to make any difference, CNN has been running with this one story consuming 60% of its air time for 2+ weeks now and other national news venues are not far behind, I’m pretty sure that everyone knows about it and has an opinion. There might be some unlettered hill-billy in Podunk Arkansas that knows nothing about the case, but I kind of doubt it.
edit to add: BTW, I sit in a little room watching CNN (not my first choice) 10 hours a day. I get exposed to every minute of their coverage for the sake of getting more timely notice of critical incidents than my employer can provide.
-
My point of jumping into the discussion on this was not about this specific case, but about what this case can do for us as a Political Organization. I don’t know Mr. Zimmerman, have never met either him nor the young man he shot, so I have no dog in that fight. What I want to know is what information from this case can we as a group take away to strengthen our own case for gun rights in THIS state? The case will either hurt us or help us, and we have no control over that. What we do have control over is how we make our strategic decisions concerning 2A rights right here in Nebraska. What can this case do for US or do TO US and our goals.
Those are the thoughts I was seeking to provoke among the membership here. What happens in Florida is going to happen no matter what we think or do here, that should be obvious. But it WILL influence how we do our job as a Political Organization, and thinking ahead and making plans for the future is usually worth the time.
Ron
-
My point of jumping into the discussion on this was not about this specific case, but about what this case can do for us as a Political Organization. I don’t know Mr. Zimmerman, have never met either him nor the young man he shot, so I have no dog in that fight. What I want to know is what information from this case can we as a group take away to strengthen our own case for gun rights in THIS state? The case will either hurt us or help us, and we have no control over that. What we do have control over is how we make our strategic decisions concerning 2A rights right here in Nebraska. What can this case do for US or do TO US and our goals.
Those are the thoughts I was seeking to provoke among the membership here. What happens in Florida is going to happen no matter what we think or do here, that should be obvious. But it WILL influence how we do our job as a Political Organization, and thinking ahead and making plans for the future is usually worth the time.
Ron
Brilliant.
.
.
I see this case as a clarifying point that's needed. It appears gun right's groups around the country are wildly divided as to where "the line" is. What I believe and what everyone else believes doesn't count. This trial MAY open discussion on Castle Doctrine to all those folks in the middle. The people who don't own guns but believe you have the right to defend yourself. People who hunt but don't carry for whatever reason. We (gun rights advocates) are not the majority,the antis are not the majority,there's a big group in the middle that's going to decide Castle Doctrine. We should embrace the aspects of this trial that will CLARIFY C.D. and SYG! This is free publicity for us! If Zimmerman crossed the line,I certainly won't defend him. If he is acquitted, I can point to SYG as WORKING to keep innocents from prison. (I know,his life is destroyed. I'm talking as an advocate) We,as a gun rights group,cannot find a consensus as to the application of CD in Florida,how can we expect the majority in the middle to comfortably accept it? We need to get the middle majority on our side. The antis are wooing them RIGHT NOW over this. Shining a bright light on the subject and inviting civil debate can only help us.
On a side note........
The more I look at this case, the less I see Castle Doctrine or Stand Your Ground or even race as the biggest issue. Police can be charged under Color of Authority for misconduct. What about a city prosecutor who decides to halt an investigation,not convene a Grand Jury, and makes their own interpretation of the law? The more I look at it, CD is a smokescreen,race is a distraction. I believe a higher up political connection was the reason Zimmerman's investigation wasn't sent to a Grand Jury. A Grand Jury will send anything with a remote possibility to a trial. I wonder if a bright light will shine on the prosecutor who squashed the investigation. It appears the police were inclined to arrest. RJ
-
Brilliant.
That’s a first. :D
I see this case as a clarifying point that's needed. It appears gun right's groups around the country are wildly divided as to where "the line" is. What I believe and what everyone else believes doesn't count. This trial MAY open discussion on Castle Doctrine to all those folks in the middle. The people who don't own guns but believe you have the right to defend yourself. People who hunt but don't carry for whatever reason. We (gun rights advocates) are not the majority,the antis are not the majority,there's a big group in the middle that's going to decide Castle Doctrine. We should embrace the aspects of this trial that will CLARIFY C.D. and SYG! This is free publicity for us! If Zimmerman crossed the line,I certainly won't defend him. If he is acquitted, I can point to SYG as WORKING to keep innocents from prison. (I know,his life is destroyed. I'm talking as an advocate) We,as a gun rights group,cannot find a consensus as to the application of CD in Florida,how can we expect the majority in the middle to comfortably accept it? We need to get the middle majority on our side. The antis are wooing them RIGHT NOW over this. Shining a bright light on the subject and inviting civil debate can only help us.
If he crossed the line then I will be standing right there next to you. ONLY a court can decide that, they are the only one’s with the legal authority to do so. We can surely have our opinions, I do as much as anyone, but my concern is for the future of 2A rights.
On a side note........
The more I look at this case, the less I see Castle Doctrine or Stand Your Ground or even race as the biggest issue. Police can be charged under Color of Authority for misconduct. What about a city prosecutor who decides to halt an investigation,not convene a Grand Jury, and makes their own interpretation of the law? The more I look at it, CD is a smokescreen,race is a distraction. I believe a higher up political connection was the reason Zimmerman's investigation wasn't sent to a Grand Jury. A Grand Jury will send anything with a remote possibility to a trial. I wonder if a bright light will shine on the prosecutor who squashed the investigation. It appears the police were inclined to arrest. RJ
Personally, I am of the opinion that the special prosecutor had no choice but to charge him. Look at the results it has achieved. Calm. It is no longer 60% of every news cycle. That is exactly what the nation needed right now. Right this moment it is a footnote in the scroll bar at the bottom of the TV screen. That WILL change when / if he gets bail, and for every other event in this case. It has gotten people, news people specially, talking about CD and self-defense. Mostly bad I would agree, but the conversation has started, in a really big way. A national discussion is under way, and that’s what the subject needed. I hope the discussion continues.
Eventually the special prosecutor will conclude that they don’t really have a case given the current laws in Florida, and Mr. Zimmerman will go free. But that will not be the end of it. Attempts to repeal CD and concealed carry will crop up around the country, and that is when the opposition comes into our game. We need to be prepared, ready to counter their hysteria with facts, ready to face the fanatics with the solid resolve of our convictions and all the data to prove them wrong without getting into a pissing match. Let the citizens currently on the fence see them as the one’s frothing at the mouth, and US as the one’s calmly presenting the facts without bias and without the hysteria they will display. Eventually we will have them playing our game again, which is right where we want them.
Ron
-
I want to say "I told you so" but I guess even with this it is still too early.
http://abcnews.go.com/US/george-zimmerman-case-exclusive-photo-shows-bloodied-back/story?id=16177849#.T5FtldUYJWl (http://abcnews.go.com/US/george-zimmerman-case-exclusive-photo-shows-bloodied-back/story?id=16177849#.T5FtldUYJWl)
-
My prediction: a jury will acquit Zimmerman due to proof of self defense. Riots will ensue, and the DOJ will go after him for "civil rights violations". It's all political at this point, justice has nothing to do with it.
I'm sure there is more that we don't know, but that photo seems to be pretty solid evidence backing up Zimmerman's claim.
-
My prediction: a jury will acquit Zimmerman due to proof of self defense. Riots will ensue, and the DOJ will go after him for "civil rights violations". It's all political at this point, justice has nothing to do with it.
I'm sure there is more that we don't know, but that photo seems to be pretty solid evidence backing up Zimmerman's claim.
I think you have nailed it
-
If Zimmerman gets acquitted, he will be gunned down by a self-proclaimed anti-racism group.
Then the politicians will blame guns and push out more gun control laws.
-
I agree with BK. I have predicted that all along.
-
I think this case has very direct consequences in the state of Nebraska. It, and the publicity churned out by the anti groups, is going to make it very difficult to argue to legislators and middle-grounders that we need Castle Doctrine/SYG laws in Nebraska. What everyone has heard is Zimmerman disobeyed police orders and continued following Martin...Martin was shot and killed. I've read some of the transcripts of the 911 call and Zimmerman didn't disobey a police order, the dispatcher said 'you don't need to do that' but that isn't what has been implanted in the minds of the sheep. Legislators in Nebraska aren't going to be too keen on easing our "duty to retreat" in light of this case and they'll point to Zimmerman for years.
In the short run, educators better use this as an example of what not to do (the early stages of the confrontation...not the self-defense)... don't confront someone that is not on your property and isn't in process of committing a crime. Call the police, be a good witness, stay out of the way. Not only can you not be the aggressor, you'd better not be perceived as the aggressor either.
Others are right, this will help our cause or hurt it. Probably both. It will galvanize arguments on both sides. What organizations like this need to do is figure how to react, or how to be proactive. Unfortunately, the average Joe or Jane will only know what has been spoon fed via mass media. Can we educate beyond that?
-
I'm guessing he is acquitted as well. Even if he is guilty, there will be to much to overcome the "beyond a reasonable doubt" standard.
As for "civil rights charges" those won't come. Those apply when someone deprives you of your rights under color of law. That's why you see police officers hit with civil rights violations. Those statutes don't apply to private citizens.
-
As for "civil rights charges" those won't come. Those apply when someone deprives you of your rights under color of law. That's why you see police officers hit with civil rights violations. Those statutes don't apply to private citizens.
Are you sure? Then why did OJ get taken to civil court and why do we need Castle Doctrine protection then? Or are we talking about different things?
-
There is a difference. Civil liability is for torts, like wrongful death. That is what got O.J. It is not a criminal charge.
What I was responding to were the earlier posters who suggested the DOJ would be charging Zimmerman with violating Martin's civil rights.
-
Ah, thank you!
-
I'm guessing he is acquitted as well. Even if he is guilty, there will be to much to overcome the "beyond a reasonable doubt" standard.
I'm not trying to make-light of what happened with Zimmerman and Martin, but we really can't know what happened.
Last year I was assaulted by high school punks that were the same age and build as Trayvon.
They can be very quick and dangerous.
Photos were released the other day showing Zimmerman's bloodied head, with those photos it's hard to be certain of anything. But like every parent would say, "My son/daughter are perfect angels."
The question now is, was Trayvon such a perfect angel?
If Casey Anthony can get off of charges of murdering her own daughter, then Zimmerman has a very good chance of walking. And who would've thought, both of these cases were in Florida.
-
Instead of opening a new thread...
http://www.clickorlando.com/news/state-pushes-to-keep-trayvon-martins-past-out-of-george-zimmerman-trial/-/1637132/20121540/-/v0sxit/-/index.html (http://www.clickorlando.com/news/state-pushes-to-keep-trayvon-martins-past-out-of-george-zimmerman-trial/-/1637132/20121540/-/v0sxit/-/index.html)
The state said in motions filed on Friday they want to prevent Zimmerman's attorneys from bringing up Martin's personal life, including his school records, previous suspension from school, fights, text messages sent prior to his death unless related to case and his social media use.
The motion also says the state wants to prevent the defense from using Martin's toxicology report, which showed the level of marijuana in Martin's blood the night he was shot and killed.
The state's filings suggest they fear the defense may try to attack Martin's character, instead of focusing on whether Zimmerman murdered Martin. Assistant prosecutor Bernie de la Rionda argued that Martin's past is irrelevant and would clearly be designed only to prejudice the jury.
It's an interesting set of questions. I think Martin's character is wholly applicable. Take the recent Benton self defense shooting ... the guy shot was a scum bag and helped show it was self defense. Martin's character can help shed light on to the situation. Besides, with all of the media's boohoo'ing over the 'poor child', it'd be appropriate to show the other side of Martin.
Will still be interesting to see how this case turns out - but why on earth is it taking so long ? :/
edit:
Also, if they were going to drag Zimmerman through the mud as they did earlier concerning financial records and all of that stuff that might relate to his 'character' somehow, then it's wholly appropriate for the other side to get dragged through the mud.
-
I'm betting it won't fly. If they can show a pattern of thuggery vs an innocent honor student, particularly on of confrontation and fighting, then it becomes more and more plausible that Zimmerman's story of being attacked and fearing for his safety becomes more plausible. That's probably why the state is looking to exclude that sort of evidence.
-
Right after this story broke, we had two incidents of black on white violence.
1. Neighborhood mob attacked a man in his yard with everything from sticks, lawn furniture and even a can of paint. Almost killed him!
2. Car stops, black youth gets out, shoots white mom standing in her yard point blank in front of her children because she shouted "slow down" as the car was speeding where children were present.
Based on these events, (Trayvon's name was used in attack 1), while they may not be wide spread, the southern cities will explode if there is not a conviction. So there WILL be a conviction, just like there was not an OJ conviction.
-
?
Spock Logic The Needs of the Many (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xa6c3OTr6yA#)
?
-
I find it unimaginable that TM's toxicology results would not be admissible; certainly the defense would bring this out during the Coroner's testimony.
This may be the prosecution's first move into CYA mode for later... "Look, we said right up front that it is a mistake to make this all about Treyvon's character..."