Author Topic: Trayvon Martin (Read 9295 times)

bkoenig · « **Reply #40 on:** April 13, 2012, 07:01:48 AM »

I don't think he has any chance of a fair trial. I'm very suspicious that this indictment was politically motivated, as what I saw of the evidence as time went on seemed to support Mr. Zimmerman.

skydve76 · « **Reply #41 on:** April 13, 2012, 10:59:35 AM »

Did disparity of force exist? Better get Ayoob over there.

Ronvandyn · « **Reply #42 on:** April 13, 2012, 04:39:43 PM »

Quote from: DanClrk51 on April 13, 2012, 01:35:36 AM

1. Not sure how much you've been paying attention but we have heard what witnesses have said and it supports Mr. Zimmermans story. The evidence was also in support of Mr. Zimmerman's story. Have you read the police report? Therefore there was no probable cause for an arrest and Mr. Zimmerman should not have to go to court in order to defend himself. That's the whole premise of Castle Doctrine/Stand Your Ground, in that it shifts the burden of proof to the state to find probable cause in order to arrest him.

2. After all this media attention and prejudging by the public can you honestly say that there will be an impartial jury left anywhere in the country for him?! On top of that he's being tried in Sanford?!! Any other case of this magnitude he would be moved to a different jurisdiction so that there can be a fair trial.

What I have learned in my years in and out of court rooms is that what a witness says under oath is often not what they have said in public. The “witnesses” I have watched on the national news channels have said quite a bit, both for and against Mr. Zimmerman, but until they are in a courtroom I consider it all “hot air”. Let’s wait until they are in the courtroom before judging their veracity.

“Probable Cause” or “Reasonable Belief” are legal issues that go far beyond the understanding of those outside of the legal community. Plenty of opinions, my own educated one included, but I don’t believe that anyone here has the information needed to make any claims about the legality of the determination of Probable Cause. As far as I know no one here in this forum was a party to the discussions concerning the issue of “Probable Cause” in the special prosecutor’s office. What I do know for a fact is that we don’t have all the information that those folks had when they made their decision, so I am not about to make a judgment on that discussion or that decision. They are professionals, and I respect them for it and expect them to act as professionals.

With the pre-court media attention I am of the opinion that it’s going to be a very difficult job to get an unbiased jury seated. Not impossible, just very very difficult. A change in venue isn’t really going to make any difference, CNN has been running with this one story consuming 60% of its air time for 2+ weeks now and other national news venues are not far behind, I’m pretty sure that everyone knows about it and has an opinion. There might be some unlettered hill-billy in Podunk Arkansas that knows nothing about the case, but I kind of doubt it.

edit to add: BTW, I sit in a little room watching CNN (not my first choice) 10 hours a day. I get exposed to every minute of their coverage for the sake of getting more timely notice of critical incidents than my employer can provide.

Ronvandyn · « **Reply #43 on:** April 13, 2012, 05:04:00 PM »

My point of jumping into the discussion on this was not about this specific case, but about what this case can do for us as a Political Organization. I don’t know Mr. Zimmerman, have never met either him nor the young man he shot, so I have no dog in that fight. What I want to know is what information from this case can we as a group take away to strengthen our own case for gun rights in THIS state? The case will either hurt us or help us, and we have no control over that. What we do have control over is how we make our strategic decisions concerning 2A rights right here in Nebraska. What can this case do for US or do TO US and our goals.

Those are the thoughts I was seeking to provoke among the membership here. What happens in Florida is going to happen no matter what we think or do here, that should be obvious. But it WILL influence how we do our job as a Political Organization, and thinking ahead and making plans for the future is usually worth the time.

Ron

omaharj · « **Reply #44 on:** April 14, 2012, 08:32:31 AM »

Quote from: Ronvandyn on April 13, 2012, 05:04:00 PM

My point of jumping into the discussion on this was not about this specific case, but about what this case can do for us as a Political Organization. I don’t know Mr. Zimmerman, have never met either him nor the young man he shot, so I have no dog in that fight. What I want to know is what information from this case can we as a group take away to strengthen our own case for gun rights in THIS state? The case will either hurt us or help us, and we have no control over that. What we do have control over is how we make our strategic decisions concerning 2A rights right here in Nebraska. What can this case do for US or do TO US and our goals.

Those are the thoughts I was seeking to provoke among the membership here. What happens in Florida is going to happen no matter what we think or do here, that should be obvious. But it WILL influence how we do our job as a Political Organization, and thinking ahead and making plans for the future is usually worth the time.

Ron

Brilliant.
.
.
I see this case as a clarifying point that's needed. It appears gun right's groups around the country are wildly divided as to where "the line" is. What I believe and what everyone else believes doesn't count. This trial MAY open discussion on Castle Doctrine to all those folks in the middle. The people who don't own guns but believe you have the right to defend yourself. People who hunt but don't carry for whatever reason. We (gun rights advocates) are not the majority,the antis are not the majority,there's a big group in the middle that's going to decide Castle Doctrine. We should embrace the aspects of this trial that will CLARIFY C.D. and SYG! This is free publicity for us! If Zimmerman crossed the line,I certainly won't defend him. If he is acquitted, I can point to SYG as WORKING to keep innocents from prison. (I know,his life is destroyed. I'm talking as an advocate) We,as a gun rights group,cannot find a consensus as to the application of CD in Florida,how can we expect the majority in the middle to comfortably accept it? We need to get the middle majority on our side. The antis are wooing them RIGHT NOW over this. Shining a bright light on the subject and inviting civil debate can only help us.

On a side note........
The more I look at this case, the less I see Castle Doctrine or Stand Your Ground or even race as the biggest issue. Police can be charged under Color of Authority for misconduct. What about a city prosecutor who decides to halt an investigation,not convene a Grand Jury, and makes their own interpretation of the law? The more I look at it, CD is a smokescreen,race is a distraction. I believe a higher up political connection was the reason Zimmerman's investigation wasn't sent to a Grand Jury. A Grand Jury will send anything with a remote possibility to a trial. I wonder if a bright light will shine on the prosecutor who squashed the investigation. It appears the police were inclined to arrest. RJ

Ronvandyn · « **Reply #45 on:** April 14, 2012, 10:21:02 PM »

Quote from: omaharj on April 14, 2012, 08:32:31 AM

Brilliant.

That’s a first.

Quote from: omaharj on April 14, 2012, 08:32:31 AM

I see this case as a clarifying point that's needed. It appears gun right's groups around the country are wildly divided as to where "the line" is. What I believe and what everyone else believes doesn't count. This trial MAY open discussion on Castle Doctrine to all those folks in the middle. The people who don't own guns but believe you have the right to defend yourself. People who hunt but don't carry for whatever reason. We (gun rights advocates) are not the majority,the antis are not the majority,there's a big group in the middle that's going to decide Castle Doctrine. We should embrace the aspects of this trial that will CLARIFY C.D. and SYG! This is free publicity for us! If Zimmerman crossed the line,I certainly won't defend him. If he is acquitted, I can point to SYG as WORKING to keep innocents from prison. (I know,his life is destroyed. I'm talking as an advocate) We,as a gun rights group,cannot find a consensus as to the application of CD in Florida,how can we expect the majority in the middle to comfortably accept it? We need to get the middle majority on our side. The antis are wooing them RIGHT NOW over this. Shining a bright light on the subject and inviting civil debate can only help us.

If he crossed the line then I will be standing right there next to you. ONLY a court can decide that, they are the only one’s with the legal authority to do so. We can surely have our opinions, I do as much as anyone, but my concern is for the future of 2A rights.

Quote from: omaharj on April 14, 2012, 08:32:31 AM

On a side note........
The more I look at this case, the less I see Castle Doctrine or Stand Your Ground or even race as the biggest issue. Police can be charged under Color of Authority for misconduct. What about a city prosecutor who decides to halt an investigation,not convene a Grand Jury, and makes their own interpretation of the law? The more I look at it, CD is a smokescreen,race is a distraction. I believe a higher up political connection was the reason Zimmerman's investigation wasn't sent to a Grand Jury. A Grand Jury will send anything with a remote possibility to a trial. I wonder if a bright light will shine on the prosecutor who squashed the investigation. It appears the police were inclined to arrest. RJ

Personally, I am of the opinion that the special prosecutor had no choice but to charge him. Look at the results it has achieved. Calm. It is no longer 60% of every news cycle. That is exactly what the nation needed right now. Right this moment it is a footnote in the scroll bar at the bottom of the TV screen. That WILL change when / if he gets bail, and for every other event in this case. It has gotten people, news people specially, talking about CD and self-defense. Mostly bad I would agree, but the conversation has started, in a really big way. A national discussion is under way, and that’s what the subject needed. I hope the discussion continues.

Eventually the special prosecutor will conclude that they don’t really have a case given the current laws in Florida, and Mr. Zimmerman will go free. But that will not be the end of it. Attempts to repeal CD and concealed carry will crop up around the country, and that is when the opposition comes into our game. We need to be prepared, ready to counter their hysteria with facts, ready to face the fanatics with the solid resolve of our convictions and all the data to prove them wrong without getting into a pissing match. Let the citizens currently on the fence see them as the one’s frothing at the mouth, and US as the one’s calmly presenting the facts without bias and without the hysteria they will display. Eventually we will have them playing our game again, which is right where we want them.

Ron

DanClrk51 · « **Reply #46 on:** April 20, 2012, 09:15:18 AM »

I want to say "I told you so" but I guess even with this it is still too early.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/george-zimmerman-case-exclusive-photo-shows-bloodied-back/story?id=16177849#.T5FtldUYJWl

bkoenig · « **Reply #47 on:** April 20, 2012, 11:25:30 AM »

My prediction: a jury will acquit Zimmerman due to proof of self defense. Riots will ensue, and the DOJ will go after him for "civil rights violations". It's all political at this point, justice has nothing to do with it.

I'm sure there is more that we don't know, but that photo seems to be pretty solid evidence backing up Zimmerman's claim.

Dan W · « **Reply #48 on:** April 20, 2012, 02:00:32 PM »

Quote from: bkoenig on April 20, 2012, 11:25:30 AM

My prediction: a jury will acquit Zimmerman due to proof of self defense. Riots will ensue, and the DOJ will go after him for "civil rights violations". It's all political at this point, justice has nothing to do with it.

I'm sure there is more that we don't know, but that photo seems to be pretty solid evidence backing up Zimmerman's claim.

I think you have nailed it

JeremyP · « **Reply #49 on:** April 20, 2012, 02:33:05 PM »

If Zimmerman gets acquitted, he will be gunned down by a self-proclaimed anti-racism group.

Then the politicians will blame guns and push out more gun control laws.

Greybeard · « **Reply #50 on:** April 21, 2012, 08:28:32 AM »

I agree with BK. I have predicted that all along.

HuskerXDM · « **Reply #51 on:** April 21, 2012, 09:15:47 AM »

I think this case has very direct consequences in the state of Nebraska. It, and the publicity churned out by the anti groups, is going to make it very difficult to argue to legislators and middle-grounders that we need Castle Doctrine/SYG laws in Nebraska. What everyone has heard is Zimmerman disobeyed police orders and continued following Martin...Martin was shot and killed. I've read some of the transcripts of the 911 call and Zimmerman didn't disobey a police order, the dispatcher said 'you don't need to do that' but that isn't what has been implanted in the minds of the sheep. Legislators in Nebraska aren't going to be too keen on easing our "duty to retreat" in light of this case and they'll point to Zimmerman for years.

In the short run, educators better use this as an example of what not to do (the early stages of the confrontation...not the self-defense)... don't confront someone that is not on your property and isn't in process of committing a crime. Call the police, be a good witness, stay out of the way. Not only can you not be the aggressor, you'd better not be perceived as the aggressor either.

Others are right, this will help our cause or hurt it. Probably both. It will galvanize arguments on both sides. What organizations like this need to do is figure how to react, or how to be proactive. Unfortunately, the average Joe or Jane will only know what has been spoon fed via mass media. Can we educate beyond that?

Husker_Fan · « **Reply #52 on:** April 21, 2012, 11:24:43 AM »

I'm guessing he is acquitted as well. Even if he is guilty, there will be to much to overcome the "beyond a reasonable doubt" standard.

As for "civil rights charges" those won't come. Those apply when someone deprives you of your rights under color of law. That's why you see police officers hit with civil rights violations. Those statutes don't apply to private citizens.

HuskerXDM · « **Reply #53 on:** April 21, 2012, 02:51:20 PM »

Quote from: Husker_Fan on April 21, 2012, 11:24:43 AM

As for "civil rights charges" those won't come. Those apply when someone deprives you of your rights under color of law. That's why you see police officers hit with civil rights violations. Those statutes don't apply to private citizens.

Are you sure? Then why did OJ get taken to civil court and why do we need Castle Doctrine protection then? Or are we talking about different things?

Husker_Fan · « **Reply #54 on:** April 21, 2012, 04:47:06 PM »

There is a difference. Civil liability is for torts, like wrongful death. That is what got O.J. It is not a criminal charge.

What I was responding to were the earlier posters who suggested the DOJ would be charging Zimmerman with violating Martin's civil rights.

HuskerXDM · « **Reply #55 on:** April 21, 2012, 08:41:28 PM »

Ah, thank you!

JeremyP · « **Reply #56 on:** April 21, 2012, 11:50:00 PM »

Quote from: Husker_Fan on April 21, 2012, 11:24:43 AM

I'm guessing he is acquitted as well. Even if he is guilty, there will be to much to overcome the "beyond a reasonable doubt" standard.

I'm not trying to make-light of what happened with Zimmerman and Martin, but we really can't know what happened.

Last year I was assaulted by high school punks that were the same age and build as Trayvon.
They can be very quick and dangerous.

Photos were released the other day showing Zimmerman's bloodied head, with those photos it's hard to be certain of anything. But like every parent would say, "My son/daughter are perfect angels."

The question now is, was Trayvon such a perfect angel?

If Casey Anthony can get off of charges of murdering her own daughter, then Zimmerman has a very good chance of walking. And who would've thought, both of these cases were in Florida.

unfy · « **Reply #57 on:** May 14, 2013, 08:14:16 PM »

Instead of opening a new thread...

http://www.clickorlando.com/news/state-pushes-to-keep-trayvon-martins-past-out-of-george-zimmerman-trial/-/1637132/20121540/-/v0sxit/-/index.html

The state said in motions filed on Friday they want to prevent Zimmerman's attorneys from bringing up Martin's personal life, including his school records, previous suspension from school, fights, text messages sent prior to his death unless related to case and his social media use.

The motion also says the state wants to prevent the defense from using Martin's toxicology report, which showed the level of marijuana in Martin's blood the night he was shot and killed.

The state's filings suggest they fear the defense may try to attack Martin's character, instead of focusing on whether Zimmerman murdered Martin. Assistant prosecutor Bernie de la Rionda argued that Martin's past is irrelevant and would clearly be designed only to prejudice the jury.

It's an interesting set of questions. I think Martin's character is wholly applicable. Take the recent Benton self defense shooting ... the guy shot was a scum bag and helped show it was self defense. Martin's character can help shed light on to the situation. Besides, with all of the media's boohoo'ing over the 'poor child', it'd be appropriate to show the other side of Martin.

Will still be interesting to see how this case turns out - but why on earth is it taking so long ? :/

edit:

Also, if they were going to drag Zimmerman through the mud as they did earlier concerning financial records and all of that stuff that might relate to his 'character' somehow, then it's wholly appropriate for the other side to get dragged through the mud.

Bucket · « **Reply #58 on:** May 15, 2013, 03:03:10 PM »

I'm betting it won't fly. If they can show a pattern of thuggery vs an innocent honor student, particularly on of confrontation and fighting, then it becomes more and more plausible that Zimmerman's story of being attacked and fearing for his safety becomes more plausible. That's probably why the state is looking to exclude that sort of evidence.

DangerousDrummer · « **Reply #59 on:** May 15, 2013, 07:37:00 PM »

Right after this story broke, we had two incidents of black on white violence.

1. Neighborhood mob attacked a man in his yard with everything from sticks, lawn furniture and even a can of paint. Almost killed him!

2. Car stops, black youth gets out, shoots white mom standing in her yard point blank in front of her children because she shouted "slow down" as the car was speeding where children were present.

Based on these events, (Trayvon's name was used in attack 1), while they may not be wide spread, the southern cities will explode if there is not a conviction. So there WILL be a conviction, just like there was not an OJ conviction.