NFOA MEMBERS FORUM
General Categories => Newsworthy => Topic started by: SemperFiGuy on August 24, 2012, 05:40:00 PM
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It's slowly coming out that maybe most of the wounded shooter victims were innocent bystanders shot by.............
The New York City Police.
Might have to take away all guns from New York's Finest.
sfg
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"One law enforcement official said that based on the preliminary investigation, it appears that most or all of the bystanders were struck by one of the 16 police bullets – or fragments or ricochets from those rounds – that were fired by the two officers who confronted Mr. Johnson."
Anti-gun advocates are already spinning this as a reason to take away our right to defend themselves.
By merit of their own arguments, this is also a good reason to disarm law enforcement:
-Armed citizens had an error rate of 2%, meaning that 1 of every 50 rounds that struck a person, the wounded individual was innocent
-Police officers, during the same time period, had an error rate of 11%, meaning that 1 of every 10 rounds that struck a person, the wounded individual was innocent.
*Clayton E. Cramer and David Burnet “Tough Targets: When Criminals Face Armed Resistance from Citizens” Cato Institute. February 2, 2012.
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"One witness told police that the gunman fired at officers, but authorities say ballistics evidence so far doesn't support that. They say Johnson's .45-caliber weapon held seven rounds. He fired five times at Ercolino, killing him. One round was still in the gun, and one was ejected when officers secured it.
The nine bystanders hit by gunfire when police took down Johnson are expected to survive. They suffered graze wounds or other minor injuries.
The wounded include two women and seven men sent to two area hospitals whom Bloomberg earlier said may have been accidentally shot by cops, who fired off 14 rounds."
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Simply amazing............... ::)
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Piers Morgan was on the TV at the gym tonight. I can't stand that guy but since this is a family friendly forum I won't say what I really think about him....
Anyway, of course he tried to use this to push for more gun control. Never mind that guns are all but illegal in New York. He got the murder victim's brother on the phone and it backfired - the brother said he supports the legal carrying of firearms. Then he brought on Rudy Giuliani, who came right out and said that gun control wouldn't have stopped it.
It amazes me how sleazebags like him won't even wait until the body is cold.
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http://news.yahoo.com/civilians-hurt-nyc-gunfire-highlight-dangers-233856647.html (http://news.yahoo.com/civilians-hurt-nyc-gunfire-highlight-dangers-233856647.html)
?"If bullets fired by police or fragments struck civilians, then the officers were also lucky to be alive, since bullets could have boomeranged in their direction..."
Idiot.
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Doesn't New York have pretty strict gun control laws???
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Doesn't New York have pretty strict gun control laws???
Yes, only the police, Bloomberg's bodyguards, and criminals can have guns in New York.
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Celebrities and other politically well connected types seem to get permits when they want.
Guns aren't for the "little people."
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But the little people of NYC are content to be slaughtered at will. And when slaughtered by the police, they will continue to blame the law abiding gun owners of the other 49 states. This I do not understand.
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Did you see in the article that one of the injured pedestrians, when asked about getting injured by the police, shrugged it off and basically said "stuff happens"?? If that had been a CCW holder, the interview would have taken place with his lawyer.
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Video of the shooting.
http://www.latimes.com/news/nation/nationnow/la-na-nn-video-police-shoot-empire-state-suspect-20120824,0,7302632.story (http://www.latimes.com/news/nation/nationnow/la-na-nn-video-police-shoot-empire-state-suspect-20120824,0,7302632.story)
- Shawn
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Two officers fired a total of 16 rounds (9 and 7) it appears they may have only hit him 3 times. Normally I wouldn't question tactics like this, but in a crowed area like that, maybe more focus on shot placement than on spray and pray would be in order.
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Have you ever shot a Glock with a New York trigger?
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No. But I do shoot revolvers in DA a fair amount. I'm not sure how that would compare.
If an obtrusively heavy pull is hurting accuracy that much, maybe they need to focus on software and trigger discipline rather than the bandaid of a heavy trigger.
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(Disclaimer; I for one appreciate the dangerous work (good) Law Enforcement Officers do. But I do not appreciate the "only ones" attitude of some officers and the brass.)
That being said;
http://www.wafb.com/Global/story.asp?S=4527526 (http://www.wafb.com/Global/story.asp?S=4527526)
East Baton Rouge Sheriff's spokesman Greg Phares says Officer Brian Harrision was escorting a funeral procession Friday when he pulled Temple over and wrote him a ticket for breaking into the procession. According to Phares, that's when Temple attacked Harrison. Police say Perry Stevens was walking outside of the Auto Zone on Greenwell Springs Road when he heard Harrison yelling for help. Harrison was reportedly on his back with Temple on top of him. That's when Stevens went to his car and grabbed his .45 caliber pistol.
According to Col. Greg Phares, "[Mr. Stevens] orders Mr. Temple to stop and get off the officer. The verbal commands are ignored and Mr. Stevens fires four shots, all of which struck Mr. Temple."
Perry Stevens fired four shots into Temple's torso. Officer Harrison had already fired one shot into Temple's abdomen. With Temple still struggling with the officer, Perry continued to advance toward the scuffle.
"He again orders Mr. Temple to stop what he was doing and get off the officer. Those commands are ignored and he fires a fifth shot and that hits his head. The incident is over with, and as you know, Mr. Temple is dead."
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Great article and nice job Mr Stevens. He certainly saved that Officers life. I'm not sure how this compares to what happened in NY though, Mr Stevens never had a gun pointed at him. Mr Temple was preoccupied, unarmed and stationary, it wont get much easier than that.
Obviously the NYPD Officers could have done better. But for every "civilian doing better than the NYPD" story posted I can post one were a civilian didn't do so good (several locally). So what? Cops and civilians aren't very different, some take this stuff seriously some dont.
The better question is how could this guy possibly continue to fight after being shot 4 times with a .45!!?? Apparently he never saw the ballistic gelatin tests ::)
- Shawn
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Great article and nice job Mr Stevens. He certainly saved that Officers life. I'm not sure how this compares to what happened in NY though, Mr Stevens never had a gun pointed at him. Mr Temple was preoccupied, unarmed and stationary, it wont get much easier than that.
- Shawn
Yeah, that thought come to mind once I posted. It was more of a 'controlled' environment.
Just struck me as a good story to 'stir the pot' with.
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The better question is how could this guy possibly continue to fight after being shot 4 times with a .45!!?? Apparently he never saw the ballistic gelatin tests ::)
- Shawn
So much for stopping power :laugh:
that is ridiculous
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One Tough Perp
First shot from the LEO was probably a .40S&W.
Then four shots from the .45ACP.
Five shots, center mass, more or less. If the Perp had a handgun, he coulda gotten off a few ugly rounds himself in the meantime.
Lends some support to the Central Nervous System Shot Placement argument.
sfg
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What would have happened in NY if it would have been a civilian with a CWP that killed the guy and still wounded 9 other innocent people. Would it have just been "one of those things"?
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What would have happened in NY if it would have been a civilian with a CWP that killed the guy and still wounded 9 other innocent people. Would it have just been "one of those things"?
1 charge of 2nd degree murder and 9 charges of attempted manslaughter, along with some other misc. charges/weapon offenses. That's what would have happened.
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Just a side thought. Has anyone heard of this before?? I just read a couple sources that said NYPD requires a 12lb trigger pull on service firearms. Wonder if this could have any implications on the accuracy of shot's fired by officers in this instance. I'm sure if you trained with that trigger pull you could become more accurate with it, but still a 12lb trigger pull would effect accuracy in any instance.
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That point was well made by Dave Hineline up above:
Have you ever shot a Glock with a New York trigger?
Noo Yawk Triggers are indeed 12 pounds.
Takes two hands, like a Whopper.
Can't help accuracy very much. Maybe current situation under scrutiny is a case in point.
sfg
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That point was well made by Dave Hineline up above:
Noo Yawk Triggers are indeed 12 pounds.
Takes two hands, like a Whopper.
That point was well made by Dave Hineline up above:
Noo Yawk Triggers are indeed 12 pounds.
Takes two hands, like a Whopper.
Can't help accuracy very much. Maybe current situation under scrutiny is a case in point.
sfg
sfg
It appears to me the officer on the right is firing one-handed. That would be rough with a 12 pound trigger under stress...
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That point was well made by Dave Hineline up above:
Noo Yawk Triggers are indeed 12 pounds.
Takes two hands, like a Whopper.
Can't help accuracy very much. Maybe current situation under scrutiny is a case in point.
sfg
In this article they test the accuracy of the heavy trigger pull. http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2012/08/foghorn/nypds-choice-of-firearm-may-have-contributed-to-the-terrible-shooting/ (http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2012/08/foghorn/nypds-choice-of-firearm-may-have-contributed-to-the-terrible-shooting/)
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Please forgive me, all those who may have taken me literally about "two hands" being needed on a 12-pound New York Glock trigger. I was using excessive hyperbole to make a point about the difficulty of that particular trigger setup.
One hand will indeed work on a 12-pound New York Glock trigger.
Nevertheless, a 12-pound trigger is one heckuva pull. Might just cause your barrel to drift and leave the target. Might.
That excellent article posted just above [including all the comments] sheds more light on this situation.
sfg
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I find it ironic that New York's anti-gun paranoia would cause them to neuter the very police force employed to keep the city safe.
It is reminiscent of the movie Demolition Man.
Fly
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It was the inability of the NYPD to display any type of trigger control that brought about the Glock NY trigger spring. It was intended to prevent accidental ( read negligent) discharges
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It was the inability of the NYPD to display any type of trigger control that brought about the Glock NY trigger spring. It was intended to prevent accidental ( read negligent) discharges
So, by that logic, the NYPD "meant" to shoot those innocent bystanders!
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I think a good solution is to make the NYPD keep their guns unloaded, disassembled, locked in a box, and secured in the trunk of the cruisers. That way, the people of NYC will be safe.
Fly
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I know I shouldn't, but I can't resist. You mean all of those years when I was required to qualify with the Smith and Wesson Model 10, double action only, I was being trained to miss. You know those awful 12 to 13 Lb double action trigger. Good grief, I simply can't figure out how I qualified, year after year.
I know the above is tongue in cheek, but. You only do what you are trained and PREPARED to do. If your trigger pull is stiff and you cannot reduce it because of Political requirements, you still learn to shoot the thing. If you are not prepared to take an active role in a firefight, then you will not hit anything when you do. The static line is fun, but when you put all of the dynamics of a real encounter, the commando talk goes out the door and the real training come in.
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We Can All Hope.............
that the NYPD gets this particular problem fixed before it's New Year's Eve in Times Square.
sfg
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If you are not prepared to take an active role in a firefight, then you will not hit anything when you do.
O, these LEOs hit something, that's for sure.
I agree with you, training is important and you can become efficient w/ a higher lb trigger pull. However, I still think a heavy trigger pull, especially a 12 or more lb trigger pull, is likely to result in a less accurate shot more often than not than a lighter trigger pull. Especially if, like you said, one isn't as trained as they should/could be with the heavier trigger pull. Then again I haven't shot/practiced with any trigger pull over 7 or 8 lbs.
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If your trigger pull is stiff and you cannot reduce it because of Political requirements, you still learn to shoot the thing.
Agreed, but you will shoot faster and more accurately with a better trigger.