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General Categories => Firearms Training and Education => Topic started by: GreyGeek on March 29, 2013, 05:53:49 PM
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And thanks to Bigtony making a brick of SMPs available to me I was able to begin reloading again.
My last reloading experience was using a Pacific Press, scales and dies to reload 30-06 ammo for my two M1 Garands, in the late 1950s.
A couple days ago 4 lbs of HP-38 arrived. I had ordered it over a month ago. (Today, 8 lbs of Titegroup arrived. It was ordered over three months ago. I had given up on it and even got a message from Powder Valley that the order was canceled, along with my CCI #500 primers order. So, it was a real surprise when the UPS man showed up. Hey, anyone still want to trade some of the HP-38 or Titegroup for some small pistol primers?)
Anyway, last night I did some research on a recipe for Berry's 124 gr JRN and HP-38.
Hodgdon gave the following:
HP-38
124gr RN
Start 3.9 gr (1009 '/s)
Max 4.4 gr (1080 '/s)
OAL 1.125"
I decided to make 10 rds with 3.9 grs and 1.125" OAL and 10 rds with 4.1grs and 1.125", staying on the low side to make up for any extra kick the magnum small pistol primers might give.
I had previously purchased a LEE 50th Anniversary Loader for $109 from Amazon, and a LEE 4 carbide die set for $40. I had purchased two sets of Quick Lock Bushings so that each die would have its own bushing and I could switch dies without having to readjust the die each time. Or at least, that was the plan.
I had also cleaned 500 brass casing. The first thing was to adjust the die for inserting the primers. That was straight forward using the info sheet that came with the dies. The kit came with two primer lever arms. They appear identical. While I was at it I followed the directions for setting the other dies. Using the depriming die the first couple used primers fell out and onto the floor because I forgot to hook the primer level arm onto the pin in the ram. Correcting that, the remainder of the 500 used primers fell into the flexible plastic tube attached to the press. The tube was filled to the top with about 450 used primers. As I deprimed each case I cleaned the primer hole with the hand tool that came with the reloading kit. The depriming tool also resized the casing by restoring the desired roundness and diameter.
Next I needed to prime the cases. I took out a pack of 100 SMPs from the brick and put them into the primer tray and placed the clear plastic lid on the black plastic tray. The instructions said to shake the tray side to side to tip the primers "upright". What side is the upright side? Shaking the tray answered the question. The side of the primer facing the powder is the "upright" side. You should see the inside of all the primers staring up at you. If you see the bright shiny side that gets hit by the firing pin then it is upside down. I placed the Priming System loaded with primers onto the bracket I installed into the press for that purpose.
When the press lever arm is pulled UP, the primer lever arm is tipped by the bottom of the frame to put the spring loaded cup holding the primer directly underneath the primer hole on the casing. I firm but moderate lift against the resistance results in the feeling of the primer sliding into the hole, followed by a firm stop of the press lever arm. Once you get the feel of it there is little chance of lifting too hard on the arm of the press and setting off the primer. I always felt the primer to make sure it wasn't protruding, and none ever did. ALL were flush with the back of the case except one. It was missing. I retried but it was obvious that the primer hole was too big to hold the primer so I threw that case into the trash.
After that I used the "Powder Through Expanding Die" to open the mouth of the resized casing just enough to allow the base of the bullet be inserted into the casing after the powder is put in. Making the opening too big can allow the bullet to fall onto the powder and later resizing it would over work the brass, leading to cracking the case. Open it just enough to barely grip the base of the bullet.
This die has a pass through to allow powder fall into a primed casing while the mouth is being opened slightly, but I could see no way to mount the powder measure to the press. I'm not sure it matters because after priming the case I put it into a holder tray which I then pass under the powder measure tool and drop measured powder into each case one after the other very quickly. Then, a bullet can be started into the mouth of each case while it is setting in the holding tray, readying it for the next step which is seating the bullet to the correct OAL with the "Bullet Seat And Feed Die".
My next task was to calibrate the powder dispensing tool that came with the reloading kit. It is a stand alone device in the kit I purchased. I bolted it to the table I bolted the press to. The documentation that comes with the device is very clear. It comes with a table listing the "Volume Measure Density" (VMD) for a large number of commonly used powders. For the HP-38 the VMD is given as 0.0926. I need 3.9 gr of powder so multiplying 0.0926 X 3.9 gr = 0.361 Cubic Centimeters of powder by volume. (The Lee reloader I am using uses the Avoirdupois system so 7,000 grains equals 16 ounces or 1 lbs. If you use 4 gr of powder per cartridge you should be able to reload about 1,700 rounds.) The metering assembly has a rotor calibrated in cubic centimeters and the vernier around the barrel of the assembly divides the measurement into tenths, with estimations to +- 0.05 CC.
That will only get you in the ball park. A balance is still necessary for final calibration. First, I filled the powder tank with powder and then I cycled the lever arm to dispense 50 or so charges into a small bowl, dumping it back into the tank when it was nearly full. I did this several times so that approximately all of the tank full of powder was cycled through the dispenser. This is done so that the graphic on the powder lubricates all the interior surfaces of the device. The documentation suggests that successive charges will get larger and larger until the device is lubricated if this lubrication step is avoided. My own experience is that once lubricated there was NO difference in weight between the first charge dispensed and the last, 20 cartridges later. So, I adjusted the roter to read 0.36 and then dispensed a charge into a case, then transferred the charge to my scale to weight it. I did small movements and retested until the charge dispensed zeroed the preset balance to exactly 3.9 gr. The balance itself is theoretically adjustable to +- 0.05 gr, but it takes practice to achieve that accuracy. When I moved the rotor to dispense the heavier 4.1 gr charge I had to move the veiner only 0.15. I would estimate that the 4.1 gr charge varied between 4.05 and 4.15, as did the 3.9 grain charge, so using the balance to make sure the dispensed charge is as accurate as the balance can be set to is important, because I found that the 0.2 gr difference made a significant difference on the range in terms of loudness, recoil, smoke and how far the casing was ejected.
After all the primed casing were given the correct charge of powder, with care taken to make sure that NO case received a double charge (which would be hard to do because the case isn't big enough to hold a double charge and the excess would fall on the table) I installed the "Bullet Seat and Die Feed" With the first bullet I adjusted the nob on top to barely touch the bullet while the ram was at the top of its stroke. Then I backed off the ram, turned the nob half a turn, compressed the bullet, and then took it out and measured the OAL with my electronic calipers. I found that a 16th to an 8th of a turn would push the bullet another 0.02 inches into the casing, so I used small increments of the nob until the OAL was 1.125". I noticed that a light pressure on the ram stopping when the ram hit the top of the press produced an OAL of about 1.128", while a firm pressure till the ram stopped gave an OAL of 1.123", so consistency of pressure application and stroking style is important. While I was an analytical chemist for Bradford Labs, and later their trainer for regional labs, I found that consistency gave the best results when weighing or titrating. If you have a habit of titrating while standing on your right foot only then always stand on your right foot. If you hold your right foot 6 inches off the ground then always hold it 6 inches off the ground, not 3 or 9 or 12. Believe it or not, such detail makes a distance because it affects how you read the meniscus, which translates into what you read as the titer volume. Reloading cartridges, I found, is just as sensitive.
With reloading done I took the 20 rounds out to the IKES range and gave them a test fire The 4.1 gr load was very loud and the ejected cartridge flew as far as my Winchester Super X 147 gr FMJ cartridges were ejected, and the recoil was just as much and the sound just as loud. The 3.9 gr load was noticeably quieter and the cartridge did not eject as far, AND, there were no FTE problems with the lighter load. So, that is the one I am going to use with the other 480 RN bullets.
I am amazed that 0.2 gr +- 0.05 gr can make such a difference. I know that 55 years ago, as a 16 or 17 year old kid I was ignorant of such things and just jammed powder and bullets together and took them out to shoot. However, 4gr is much more than 40 gr and .2 gr won't make that much difference. Had I been reloading a pistol back then I would have probably blown my gun apart.
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Glad I could help your primer problem. They are hard to find and the people that have them always try to stick it to ya.
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An Aside:
I was shooting on the 30 yard range into a target with a 3" bull on an 8"X11" sheet of paper. I had a total of 9 hits on paper out of 20 shots, 2 in the bull and 4 within an inch of the bull. The rest of the shots were within 5 inches of the paper, on all sides.
I saw of video of Hitchcok45 shooting the Bretta Nano, my pistol, on his range. He put 5 out of the 6 rounds in the magazine onto an 24" gong at 80 yards, off hand. Remarkable. At closer ranges he was exceptionally accurate and quick.
He has big hands, like I do. My problem is that when my trigger finger hits 90 degrees while closing, there is still a ways to go before the striker releases. I have to pull so hard my hand starts shaking. I've tried using the tip, the first joint and the second joint of my index finger but those positions are equally difficult. There is just too much take up in the trigger pull before release. No one can "accidently" fire this weapon if their fingers are as long as mine unless the weapon is defective.
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The kit came with two primer lever arms. They appear identical.
Maybe you already know and just didn't add the detail. The two primer arms that fit in the ram should be different. One is for large primers and the other for small primers.
The primers have to be shaken upright before the clear plastic cover is put on the primer tray of the safety prime or there will not be room for the primers to flip. After the primers are upright, the cover is installed.
Nice write up, just didn't want anyone to miss something.
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The two primer arms that fit in the ram should be different. One is for large primers and the other for small primers.
That's what I thought too, but they appeared to me to be exactly the same size when I put them together and put their cups together and on top of each other. What I didn't do is measure the inside diameter of the cups. So, I just did. One is 0.2" and the is 0.17". So, you are right! By PURE luck I selected the one with the smaller inside diameter and everything worked out fine. IF I had selected the other one the primers would have been too loose in the cup and I would probably have mashed or set off one of them crushing it against the primer hole edge.
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IF I had selected the other one the primers would have been too loose in the cup and I would probably have mashed or set off one of them crushing it against the primer hole edge.
That was my concern.
I have a breech lock Lee cast iron press. Started with .45ACP so the large primers could only fit the larger primer arm (and frustration when running accross the occasional Blazer .45 case with small primer hole). Then started doing 9mm when things were already sorted out. Just happened to stop into the Sioux City Scheels a couple of weeks ago...primer case was empty of pistol primers, but there was more rifle primers than normal (lately)...then noticed the pistol ammo case (otherwise devoid of pistol ammo) was full of primer boxes!!!! Got away with one box each of small and large (limit).
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Welcome back into the family.
One of us...
One of us...
One of us...
*cough* ahem...
Anyway... glad ya had success. And yes, going from 30-06 with it's huge powder charge to 9mm ... you'll easily discover that a few tenths of a grain can make a huge difference in how it fires. Then again, 0.2 grains in a 30-50gr charge isn't much (a percent or so ?) ... but 0.2 gr in a 4gr case is like 8%?
with care taken to make sure that NO case received a double charge
Double charges are a concern, and a very important concern, yes. As you know, it's the squib load that's FAR more dangerous ;).
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it's the squib load that's FAR more dangerous
I entertained the idea of making a squib load just to see of the SMPs were hot enough to push the 124 gr RNs out of the barrel, but after considering what I might have to do to get a stuck bullet out of the barrel I decided against it.
Anyone know IF an SMP is hot enough to push the bullet out of the barrel without any powder in the case?
Good to be back. BTW, reloading is just as much fun as I remembered it. Especially with pistol cartridges it is like taking care to make a fine painting, or build a nice lawn chair. Precision, precision, precision, the hallmark of a great analytical chemist! 8)
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standard large pistol primers can push a glue stick nub out of out a 1911 / 45acp.
dunno if small pistol primers got enough oomf for a similar glue stick bullet.
lead or jacket, i'd highly doubt it... thats ALOT more friction.... and rifles pipe on a squib for sure.
as an experiment, i should possibly attempt to purposefully squib a load... and use the pen microscope for pics.
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as an experiment, i should possibly attempt to purposefully squib a load... and use the pen microscope for pics.
Unfortunately, I have seen people experiment with this. There is significant difference between bullets (types, materials, jacketed or not, etc.) that can cause significant variable results. There is also differences in the action of firearms that will change the results. Some bullets stick at the beginning of the rifling and others drop a short distance out of the barrel. A squib round is something all shooters should understand. If the bullet is stuck at the chamber and hasn't started full rifling, drive it back to the chamber with a soft rod (close fitting brass or wood dowel) and hammer. Or, if bullet has moved down the barrel, squirt in some lube and drive the bullet out to the muzzle.
I have removed a number of stuck bullets for people, but have never experienced one from one of my guns (lucky?). When/if more than one round was fired into the stuck bullet, I have ran a slug through after the clear and the change in drag on the slug quickly tells if the barrel suffered bulging.
Had a guy give me a .357 to clear with 3 bullets in the barrel and two rounds fired after that apparently squirted out the front of the cylinder. He stopped when he noticed the lead hitting all around the shooting station dividers. The lack of holes in his target hadn't registered yet.
Saw in a recent issue of Handgunner mag. where bullets were stacked in a rifle and pistol barrel, there was 7 in the pistol...owner had reloaded!
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I reloaded another 100 rds of 9mm this morning.
When I weighed the output of the powder dispensing system it was exactly 3.9 gr, which is what I set it for yesterday when I loaded 20 test rounds to see if 3.9 or 4.1 gr of powder worked better. About every 20 rounds I'd throw a charge into the scale pan and weight it. The balance always zeroed.
After I finished I decided to do an experiment. Rather than weight 1 charge I'd collect 10 charges in the pan and weigh it. The weight came to 40.9 grains, with per charge average of 4.1 grains! ???
Also, while it is possible to read the vernier scale to 0.05 grains by getting two white lines to show, it doesn't appear that the scale is actually that sensitive. A more realistic evaluation would appear to be +- 0.1 grains. Even though a test before the 100 bullets were loaded, and a test of the charge at about every 20 bullets, and again at the end, showed that they balanced with the setting at 3.9 grains, it seemed to me that 10 charges would weigh 39.0 instead of 40.9 (+- 0.1).
For pistol reloading it also casts doubt on the wisdom of weighing each charge on the balance instead of using the powder dispensing tool. 1/10th of a grain can make a difference with some powders, especially when the volume of a 9mm round leaves tight tolerances The 1.125" OAL puts the back of the bullet just above the powder setting in the cartridge, avoiding making a compressed load.
From now on what I am going to do is set the rotor on the powder tool to an approximate setting, then dump 20 charges into the pan and weight it and divide by 20. Based on 1/20th of that total I'd make additional changes on the rotor and retest. When 1/20th of 20 charges gives me the per round powder load that I want I'd consider the powder dispensing tool calibrated for the per round powder load. Also, like water in a tank, the higher the water level the greater the pressure at the bottom. To insure a reproducible dispensing of a single charge I plan to keep the powder in the holding tank within an inch of the top of the holding tank. For pistol rounds I am no longer going to rely on weighing a single charge.
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I did some experimenting with 20 charge weighings. Moving the veneer in by a fraction of one minor division changed the mass from 79.2 (3.96 per charge) to 78.2 (3.91 per charge). That's about as close as I can get it.
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EDIT: I miscalculated the cost of the bullets. It was $27 for 250, not 500
I decided to figure out what reloaded costs me in terms of powder, primer, bullets and casing.
powder hp-38 1.683 cents per round (7,000 / 4)
primer 3.0 cents per round ($30 / 1000)
bullet 10.8 cents per round ($27 / 500)
casing 1.6 cents per round ( $49 / 500 and with six reloads)
TOTAL 16.083 cents per round
The cost of the LEE 50th Anniversary Reloading kit isn't in that, but that will last my son a life time after I am through using it.
As I write GunBot's lowest price for a 124 gr FMJ is 61 cents per round.
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I plan to keep the powder in the holding tank within an inch of the top of the holding tank. For pistol rounds I am no longer going to rely on weighing a single charge.
Don't know what powder measure you are using, but there are baffles available for most measures that effectively limit the column pressure. If you look up RCBS measures and their related baffle, it is easy enough to make a baffle from thin sheetmetal (some have used pop/beer can metal). It does have effect on repeatability. There will always be some deviation since the loads are small (especially if using something like W231/HP-38) and powder shape simply causes variation.
The way I look at it is that unless you are loading to an upper limit, a normal usable range will allow some flexability. I tend to go for accuracy (target shooting) and load to what the gun likes. That seems to put the load into a generally mid range of the particular powder/application. It is all a lot of guessing until a crony is used.
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For pistol, I load 100 at a time; run the primed case up into the expander with the funnel up top.
I use a Frankford Arsenal electronic scale (amazing for $25. when purchased..always within .1g of other 2 scales) and measure about every 15-20 or so, then compare all 100 charged cases with a flashlight.
Same powder throw that came with your aniversary kit. Has to be the best $20.00 scale money can buy..haha or only one?
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A baffle like this?
(http://www.chrisbaker.com/pix/lid3.jpg)
I'm not sure that baffle behaves the way people think it does. Just because the area directly above the hole into the dispensing tube is blocked and the powder has to flow through one of the three holes on the side doesn't mean that the effective pressure in the tube is uniform as the level of the powder in the holder drops.
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In my searches of everything reloading, there are numerous accounts of a baffle improving drop consistency. They basically followed the same 10-20 drop weight check. In testing of baffling in much larger media (grain loads in semi-trailers) there is indeed a load change since a good deal of the column load is on the baffle surface and division at openings impeding load even at those openings. It is also reported that drop consistency can even change if the cap is present or removed from the powder drop reservoir.
Since pistol loads are so light, I usually pour up to a certain level in the reservoir and maintain occassionally. Most times, I am only doing 100-200 rounds at a time.
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For me... the baffle hasn't been too important. Keeping a semi-consistent powder level in the tube helps more... or rather between a couple inches at a certain point gives consistent results. Note, this is on a hornady lnl powder measure on the lnl ap press. I get +- 0.1gr every time (with most being dead on).... and do sanity checks every 20 rounds at the start, then after 100 rounds, do sanity checks every 100 rounds.
Something to note about reloading... it's all about consistency. If your volumetic powder measure throws consistently, then you're golden.
If you're using the Lee PPM, then... well... i've only put ~50 rounds through mine and found it to be a bit variable. Haven't worked out a way to make it more consistent yet.
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there are numerous accounts of a baffle improving drop consistency.
No doubt. However, gun powder lubricated to flow more easily takes on the properties of a fluid and as such can be modeled by the same physics that models the flow of water in tall containers, and by Bernoulli's Principles, which models the flow of fluids. In a hopper having holes at various heights the holes near the bottom shoot water out farther than holes near the surface because the pressure is greater. The controlling variables are the height of the fluid in the hopper, the density of the fluid, and its viscosity. The atmosphere is an example also. The pressure at the surface is around 15 lbs/sq in. If you take a barometer anywhere on the surface, or inside any container or collection (baffles) of containers, as long as there is a path for the air to seep in and out the pressure at every point inside any container will be the same 15lbs. As long as gravity is the only force it would be impossible for the pressure on the inside container to be more or less than than the outside pressure because removing are from the bottom or innermost container can only be done via gravity.
Look at it another way. Say the baffle maintained a constant pressure at the hole in the bottom. then the pressure on the underside of the baffle, above the hole, would have to be constant even if the pressure on the top side of the baffle varied due to the height of the powder in the hopper. The pressure on the top side is a direct result of the density of the powder, its viscosity and the distance to the top of the powder. So, as the height of the powder in the hopper dropped and the pressure on the top side of the baffle dropped, the pressure on the bottom side of the baffle remains the same? Not possible. If it did there would be an unbalanced force causing the baffle to "fly" up just the same way a the wing of an airplane gives lift because of the unequal pressures between the top and bottom of the wing.
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GG:
Powder, as a granular solid, behaves differently from water, which is a fluid.
Powder above the baffle pushes down on the baffle. Then an upward force at the legs of the baffle pushes back up to resist the downward force on the baffle. There is little or no upward pushing by the powder located under the baffle (which is unlike the fluidic behavior of water).
In fact, a void can and usually does exist immediately under the baffle, which is why the powder doesn't/can't push back up on the underside of the baffle (unlike water, which moves in under pressure to fill the void).
Under-the-baffle conditions are a separate local system from above-the-baffle conditions. (Again, unlike the behavior of water.) The downward forces at the holes in the baffle are supported by upward forces at the bottom of the powder tube. Sideward forces at the baffle holes are minimal, due to the very low mass/weight of the powder.
Basically, solid granular powder behaves differently from a pure fluid.
Or else the powder baffle wouldn't work. But--it does.
sfg
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In fact, a void can and usually does exist immediately under the baffle,
That's the key if, in fact, a void is observed. The HP-38 powder I am using behaves very similar to water. Being opaque, IF I put a baffle in the hopper any void under the baffle would be invisible unless the baffle fit tightly against the sides of the hopper and allowed one to see underneath the baffle while the powder was flowing. A "^" shaped baffle may allow this.
I could also see a baffle working for the larger, rod shaped powders which would flow less eaily than the very fine HP-38 type particles.
Basically, I'm a "doubting thomas" until I see the evidence with my own eyes. BTW, after setting my LEE powder dispenser rotor so that twenty charges gives an average weight of 3.91 grains, I reloaded another 100 rounds. Testing the weight before, during and after the 100 rnds, the balance zeroed on each individual charge, which turned out to be 3.85 grns. There appears to be some discrepancy between weights taken at the low end of the scale and the higher end. Twenty charges gave 78.2 grains, (3.91 gr avg) but individual charges weighed at regular intervals gave 3.88 gr.
I am also somewhat surprised at the variation in OAL with very small differences in ram pressure when seating the bullet, even though the ram is stopped each time. Lighter pressures will give OAL's of 1.128 or 1.129 and heavier pressures will give 1.122 or even 1.120. The big question for me is "How much difference in chamber pressures on a 9mm 124 gr JRN in a 3" barrel will a difference in OAL of 1.125 +- 0.005 gr will make? And, adding to that, the difference in chamber pressure that a powder difference of 0.03 gr will make? Will this throw the bullet all over the target?
When I loaded what I thought was 10 3.9 gr rounds and 10 4.1 gr rounds the difference in loudness and recoil was significant, and I wasn't experienced enough then to realize what the difference in OAL would make. Reloading 9mm casings with a specific 124 gr bullet and powder is not a simple task. It is sure a lot harder to do than I remember reloading that 30-06 ammo was. Maybe that's why 7 yards is used a lot in handgun practice?
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I am also somewhat surprised at the variation in OAL with very small differences in ram pressure when seating the bullet, even though the ram is stopped each time.
A press exerts a lot of force. Depending on your press, you can possibly cause some deflection / torsion in the press frame, ram, shell, etc.
One of the keys to reloading is consistency. Not only does this mean consistency in the components you use, but also consistency in YOU. When dropping charges, develop a rhythm so that the 'knock knock' is always consistent (this a bit harder in the all-plastic Lee PPM). When seating bullets, develop a consistent felt resistance. If this happens to be bearing down on the press or somewhere in between.. .that's up to you. Primer seating is by feel as well. You'll get the rhythm / hang of it.
Maybe that's why 7 yards is used a lot in handgun practice?
Typical engagement distance actually...
edit: fixed quote block
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I will atest that gun propellant is nothing like water.
I am a volunteer firefighter and just took some training on grain bin rescue. We buried people up to their armpits in corn. Built a tube around them, pushed the tube into the corn, bailed the corn in the tube and the victim simply climbed out. Obviously, a fluid would not behave that way. Grain is very similar to gun propellant.
As pointed out earlier, I did quality control work in the semi-trailer industry and did load testing on trap doors of grain trailers (and other media like crushed rock). Placement of baffles did play a part in loading on release doors and could be positioned to ensure whether a door would function or not with a load.
So yes, a baffle will make a difference in gun propellant by limiting the column load seen at the meter portion of a power drop.
I use an RCBS powder drop with a pistol meter assembly. The design of the drop allows for a good smack of the meter against the body of the drop and causes a "clack" that can help powder settle. I let the meter hit the top and bottom of the body during a cycle as consistently as I can and it seems to be pretty accurate and repeatable. It is never going to be exactly the same in small amounts because shaped material will never fill the same space the same way again. I have even seen forum posts where people were using electric vibrators mounted to their powder hoppers to try to get a consistent settle of material.
The other day, I had a .0001" dial indicator attached to a milling machine to square up a vise. I showed a guy that works with me that I could press on the top of the mill and deflect the indicator rather easily. That mill is much more massive than a reloading press and the press will develop much more force than the force I was pushing down on that mill.
Like most things that require quality assurance, a process needs to be developed for repeatability and an acceptable range of deviation created. I imagine an indicator could be set up on a press as a pressure indicator. I have measured a lot of factory ammo and it can have considerable variation in COL.
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I decided to make 10 rds with 3.9 grs and 1.125" OAL and 10 rds with 4.1grs and 1.125", staying on the low side to make up for any extra kick the magnum small pistol primers might give.
I read this, and thought, 'Isn't this a huge no-no?'
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I read this, and thought, 'Isn't this a huge no-no?'
In general, yes. You're changing the burn rate of the powder, possibly damaging the flash hole in your brass, and other issues.
With that said... most reloaders will tinker. I'll just hope he started off with a very light load that's at least 10% under suggested starting (or far more), and has been working up to where he is now while keeping any eye out for pressure signs, gun behavior, etc.
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I'll just hope he started off with a very light load that's at least 10%
That's exactly what I did. The max load was 4.4gr and I started at 3.9 gr. I found that the 3.9 gr load recoiled just like the commercial rounds, and sounded the same. The 4.1 gr load had a definitely larger recoil and was a lot louder. The casing ejected 50% or more farther. I didn't see any flattening of the primer and the cases didn't appear to be bulging on the 4.1 gr load.
It has amazed me to realize how tight the tolerances are when reloading a 9mm casing. The 3.9 gr of powder fills the case over half full, and when I seat the 124 gr JRN bullet its base is just above the powder. It wouldn't take much more powder to create a compressed load. Minor variations in ram pressure can produce 0.005" variations in OAL, which can have significant effects in chamber pressure. The balance that came with my kit is suspect. It "should" give me a weight that is 10 or 20 times the weight of a single charge when I put 10 or 20 charges into the pan, but it doesn't. The averaged weight can be different from the single charge by as much as 0.3 gr, which can be the difference between a good round and over pressure.
I've realized one mistake I made getting back into reloading and that is being too cheap. My previous 30-06 and shotgun shell reloading experience had a lot more room for errors without effecting results, but not so with reloading 9mm casing and expecting reliability in accuracy. I was way to cheap in choosing equipment. IMO, the Lee 50th Anniversary Press is NOT consistent enough to load 9mm casings reliably. I don't trust the balance. The Lock Bushing allows too much vertical play. The digital calipers can give a difference in OAL of 0.002" - 0.004" just based on how "tight" you adjust it, or if you are rotating or sliding the bullet to find the "highest" point on the tip of the bullet. "Feel" is not reliably reproducible.
I should have purchased a turret press with automatic powder, primer and bullet feeders, and instead of using human power to work the ram up and down and rotate the turret, have a sealed electric motor powering the whole works for consistency. But, alas, my wife would complain about the price, rightly so, and, I tell myself, I am not reloading that many bullets. Just enough to practice for various scenarios under 30 yards that might happen.
So, rather than blame my tools, I will enjoy honing my skills. Besides protecting myself and my wife from a madman, I am also in it for the fun. If I had a dollar for every round I fired before I turned 40 I could have retired at 40.
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I read this, and thought, 'Isn't this a huge no-no?'
I was concerned about that when I saw a brick of CCI SMPs setting on the shelf at Scheel's. Actually, it was setting on TOP of the shelf behind some stuff. IF I weren't 6'5" I would have never noticed it. Anyway, concerned, I drove home and did a search about using SMPs instead of SPPs. Most anecdotal tales said that no harm, no foul if one starts at the low end of the powder range and test the loads, working up. So, that is what I decided to do. However, when I got back to Sheel's (only a mile from my place) that box was gone. :( Sheel's primer case has been empty every since.
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I will atest that gun propellant is nothing like water.
Like I used to tell my physics students "Theory proposes but experiments (or experience) disposes"
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That's exactly what I did. The max load was 4.4gr and I started at 3.9 gr.
Actually, what he said, and what is suggested, is that you should start 10% below the suggested starting load, not the suggested MAX load.
Basically--if you are putting together a recipe that bears little relation to what is actually given in the reloading manual (and truthfully, you should always look at several reloading manuals, not just one), particularly if you are using magnum primers, you should start extremely conservatively.
If you find it isn't enough to work the action, no problem. You just add more powder. You DON'T want to have the opposite end of the spectrum problem, however.
I note also that when comparing loads, you don't want to change the OAL if you are doing powder checks. Once you have a powder amount in the range you like, then try different OALs. (Carefully!) After some work with that, then try combinations in your preferred range. However, comparing one load at one OAL to a different load at a different OAL is useful only if you want to compare those two loads. If you are actually trying to work up an optimum load, that just isn't going to be the most useful way to do it.
Plenty of people use magnum primers in 9mm loads, and don't worry about damaging the flash hole. (I do on occasion, if I'm out of small pistol primers.) However, it does make the round act differently, so unless you already KNOW that the difference is not dangerous and that the difference in performance doesn't matter to you, you should drop the powder charge a bit and actually go test it carefully.
When I'm working up a new load, I tend to make 20 rounds on the low end, and then 20 rounds for the next 0.1 grains of powder up from there for about 0.5 grains. I take them out and test them for slide action, recoil, a little bit of accuracy (not much, this is just an initial test), and across a chrono for speed.
That gives me enough info to see 1) what the load does in general, and 2) how much the load changes per 0.1 grain. (I'll note that you can't take that for granted, though--certain powders change smoothly up to a point, and then suddenly change drastically.)
When I've got a couple of variations that I like (a good solid workable load, and loads 0.1 grains on either side of it) I make 50-100 of each and take them out to the range for serious testing for accuracy, speed, and recoil characteristics. (I rarely change OALs, simply because I know what OALs feed reliably in my guns, so I stick with that. One less variable for me to care about.)
Also: powders simply do not behave like fluids. There are certain specific circumstances in which powders CAN behave similarly to fluids (notably, when under constant vibration) ----but a reloading press is not one of them. Indeed, empirical data is the way to go.
I note that this entire thread really needs to be in the reloading forum, not the training forum.
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Actually, what he said, and what is suggested, is that you should start 10% below the suggested starting load, not the suggested MAX load.
You're right. When he wrote "10% under" I saw that as referring to the max load so often that I assumed it was what he was saying skipped to other parts.
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When I'm working up a new load, I tend to make 20 rounds on the low end, and then 20 rounds for the next 0.1 grains of powder up from there for about 0.5 grains.
mmm..... I wish my scale could accurately measure and the powder dispenser could reliably dispense at 0.1g increments. I've really been disappointed with this Lee 50th Anniversary Loader.
I really don't like the concept that the scale uses magnetic damping to bring the pointer to the zero mark. 55 years ago the Pacific scale I used required that you set the weight on the scale and trickle grains until two successive swings of the pointer were on equal sides of the zero point. In college and grad school, and at Bradford labs, the same swinging pointer method was standard.
The powder dispenser binds going down and occasionally leaks powder from the bottom of the cylinder. You can see the bottom of the circular section where the rotor tube attaches pull slightly away from the frame and drop powder on the bench. I've taken it apart and noticed scratching on the inside of the rotating circular black piece. The lever arm causes the central part to rock sideways in its frame.
When I am flaring the casing and seating the primer I have to push the casing back into the holder so it centers over the primer tool as I bring the ram down.
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When I am flaring the casing and seating the primer I have to push the casing back into the holder so it centers over the primer tool as I bring the ram down.
Your cases do not stay centered in the holder when retracted from the die? The Lee flare (powder) die does have a sliding part that is intended to 'click' and aid a powder drop when used to add powder in the die. Typically, the primer is already installed before the flare step, so I have never tried to see if the case remained centered.
I deprime dirty/used cases with a Lee universal decapping die. Tumble the brass in stainless pins. Then run the clean brass through the caliber specific size/deprime die. That way dirt is not pressed into the die or case. Due to the shape of 9mm, it seems to take a bit of force sometimes to size. Not a lot but more than a .45acp case (just my experience). Case lube makes things easier/smoother and a very, very, small amount of lube is required (basically just trace amount from fingertips).Then I flare. Add powder in small lots sitting in a tray,visually check powder fill/level and quality check weight about every 10 (and rarely have a significant variation). Then seat bullets and quality check COL. Then size with a Lee Factory Crimp die. More of a size than a crimp really, but gives the cartridge it's final shape.
A couple .001" should not be a significant issue. You can vary cartridge length just cycling it through a gun a number of times (hitting ramp drives bullet into case).
Precision measuring is an art. I have a set of gage blocks (precision steel blocks that are usually .00000x" in tolerance). I occasionally check measuring tools like calipers or micrometers against these blocks, not only to ensure the tool is set properly, but also to check my fee/technique for using that tool. The typical low cost (under $100) calipers are not very rigid and can have a wide accuracy, coupled with inexperienced technique, measurments can be pretty wild. It is easy to push calipers too hard and get an incorrect measure. Gage blocks are not horrible expensive and can be found at online machine tool supplies or eBay (for real cheap buys). Find a 1" or something close to your cartridge COL and make some practice measures until you can find a consistent feel that yeild the block dimension reliable. Will greatly improve measuring practices.
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Quote from: unfy on Yesterday at 10:53:49 PM
I'll just hope he started off with a very light load that's at least 10%
That's exactly what I did. The max load was 4.4gr and I started at 3.9 gr. I found that the 3.9 gr load recoiled just like the commercial rounds, and sounded the same. The 4.1 gr load had a definitely larger recoil and was a lot louder. The casing ejected 50% or more farther. I didn't see any flattening of the primer and the cases didn't appear to be bulging on the 4.1 gr load.
The starting load being 3.9gr - I would have started at 3.4 or 3.5 with the magnum primers, personally.... not at 3.9gr. Sorry for any confusion. And I see that this has been addressed in the above posts, good :).
IMO, the Lee 50th Anniversary Press is NOT consistent enough to load 9mm casings reliably.
I've not fiddled with the Lee 50th kit myself.... but having worked with other Lee equipment, you should be able to produce factory or perhaps better quality ammo just fine. I will say the Lee PPM does take some getting used to and might be impossible to hone perfectly (I've not spent a whole lot of time with mine yet... maybe 50 rounds?). Can't speak for the scale, either.
The press and dies should be just fine though and should produce quality ammo. As mentioned earlier by someone else, even huge honking chunks of steel / iron presses will deflect a bit when put under pressure. It's all about getting yourself consistent on the feel of what you're doing.
RCBS rock chuckers will deflect a little bit, my Hornadly LNL AP will deflect a little bit... it's just how it is. Get yourself consistent so that what you do affects the tooling the same way every time and you should be producing consistent rounds (the PPM is a notable possible exception).
That said, attempting to produce benchrest ammo on the 50th would be slightly problematic, but attempting to produce benchrest ammo without $120-$250 seating dies and such are going to be issuey as well. It *can* be done without them (read the opening of a Lee reloading manual and see the horn tooting heh)... but they definitely help.
Given that you seem to be fixating on thousandths and sub thousandths of an inch, are you also trimming your brass cases ? Uniforming primer pockets & flash holes ? Annealing case mouths so that grip is consistent along with neck trimming turning so that case wall thickness is uniform ? Sorting brass by head stamp and weight ?
Probably not... as such... get the ammo COAL +/- a thousandths of an inch, get your powder drop within +/- 0.1gr and go with it. Find a load that does what you want and reproduce it.
I found that even quality plinking hand loads far outperform my ability to shoot for what it's worth.
edit: see strike through / italics for a couple minor word changes.
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Given that you seem to be fixating on thousandths and sub thousandths of an inch, are you also trimming your brass cases ? Uniforming primer pockets & flash holes ? Annealing case mouths so that grip is consistent along with neck trimming so that case wall thickness is uniform ? Sorting brass by head stamp and weight ?
Probably not... as such... get the ammo +/- a thousandths of an inch, get your powder drop with +/- 0.1gr and go with it. Find a load that does what you want and reproduce it.
I found that even quality plinking hand loads far outperform my ability to shoot for what it's worth.
+1
I fling random range brass into a tumbler for 15 minutes, don't touch the primer pocket or flash holes, and crank out 500 rounds at a time from my Dillon press, occasionally checking that the powder is staying within 0.1 grains of what I want it to dispense in a case (occasionally = if it occurs to me, which is about once every couple of hundred rounds).
While I'm sure it "affects" my accuracy, this is pistol ammo---the affect of the reloading differences on accuracy is significant orders of magnitude below the affects of MY shooting skills on accuracy.
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GreyGeek: just as another note - for how precise and other stuff you're attempting to be, are you sorting your bullets ? Berry's aint high quality stuff, they'll be +/- a few grains and possibly +/- a thousandths of an inch in diameter as well. Dunno about lengths, haven't really looked into that. They're generally really close and 'mostly' consistent, but you've fixated a bit too much ;).
I can fully understand some frustration with the PPM. Being plastic it... well... It does the job but I've not gotten it to fully cooperate yet. I've not sat down with it and beat it into submission yet. I believe there are others here on the forum that have gotten their PPM to work flawlessly.
And - just to clarify a little regarding my 'get a load and go' -- get a load your pistol likes that produces results down range that you like. Using the numbers to get close to where ya want it so that you can double check safety and somewhat consistancy. Keep track of these numbers, but realize that those numbers will have some 'color' to them in how your equipment behaves and how you behave. If you're looking for higher quality pistol loads, run 200-1000 rounds at once for each step, this way you get a large batch of ammo created from the same 'run' with everything 'in the same working order' (assuming your equipment is broken in, you're being consistent and not tired) ... this way that large batch should be mostly uniform. Ya can burn through a magazine or two to see how it's performing and adjust your shooting if need be.
With consistent input from you, your press should produce consistent results. My lil lee aluminum C press gifted to me by SFG who had it for decades... produces consistent results (using lee dies as well in that press).
If someone will chime in regarding getting the PPM to cooperate better, that'd be cool. I believe one person has mentioned keeping the tension screws relatively tight... for me, I had the opposite (needing them on the looser side)... but I've not fiddled with it much to get it ultra consistent yet. Also, not sure if H38 is a type of powder that likes to go through a powder measure or not.
Give the drop tube a flick or two before and after each drop (ie: flick, turn handle, flick, turn handle)... it might get better results for ya. The PPM not being able to fully replicate the vibratory 'knock knock', flicking might help.
Others have had good luck with the lee auto-disk measure, haven't extensively used one myself.
For a stand alone measure, I'd prolly suggest an RCBS or Hornady metal thing. Haven't used a Lyman myself, yet. I believe the Lyman has interchangeable inserts (the hornady does, entire cam can swap out).
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Given that you seem to be fixating on thousandths and sub thousandths of an inch, are you also trimming your brass cases ? Uniforming primer pockets & flash holes ? Annealing case mouths so that grip is consistent along with neck trimming turning so that case wall thickness is uniform ? Sorting brass by head stamp and weight ?
Considering how little space is left in the casing with a 3.9 gr powder load, how insensitive the scale and measure are to 0.1gr differences, how much difference small changes in OAL can make to chamber pressures, etc.... I thought being cautious on OAL and powder charges was important. I push the bullet into the case as far as it would go to see what the OAL would be -- 1.110", so the gap is only 0.025" with an OAL of 1.125"
However, the sloppiness of the 50th kit would swamp any such fine adjustments as you noted. My own accuracy in using my Nano isn't good enough yet, due to lack of sufficient ammo to practice until now, to merit such accuracy. During the shooting phase of my CCW course only 2 of the 150 rounds I shot were outside the kill zone of the target but they were all over the map. Maybe in a couple thousand rounds I'll be able to hold a 3" group at 7 yards shooting offhand. It looks like I used an 00 buck shotgun. When I used to reload and shoot my accuracy was such that I only took head shots to save meat, and that included taking birds out of the air with a .22, but I rarely shot a pistol, even when a deputy marshal. When shooting my Nano on the range for the first time last week, out of the 20 rounds I tested 9 hit the 8" X 11" paper at 30 yards, and of those a couple were in the 3" bull, a couple were within an inch or two and the rest were on the paper. But that was shooting from a rest. I also learned that the LaserMax was worthless in the daylight at that range. I just couldn't see the red dot. I could see it at 7 yrds IF I used the iron sights first to locate it. That's another surprise. A green laser would be better.
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I don't believe that anyone can accurately measure COAL within .001" unless you are measuring from the ogive and not the tip of the bullet, because the bullets are just not that precisely made
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I see a lot of things written about COAL. A lot of popular pistol rounds headspace on the case. So we are interested in the part of the bullet that will first engage the rifling when fired. Different shaped bullets (and various manufacturers) will result in different COAL just by the shape of the bullet. It is important to go by the manufacturers recommendation since they best understand the shape of their product. After you have a good understanding of how everything affects the other, you might depart from their recommendation applied to a particular firearm.
As just pointed out, tip to head dimension may be different than seat to rifling dimension that may have the greater impact on accuracy. This may be .020 out to .030" or any other number someone has determined is required that is simple the amount the bullet moves before it encounters rifling.
There is a consideration for pressure being lower when the bullet has a space to move before encountering the resistance of rifling. But, a few thousands up or down that allows the bullet to cycle/chamber without hanging up on the rifling usually fires fine without pressure issues. There is room for error.
A lot of us feel your pain on practice ammo. Since you seem most interested in defensive use, consider the difference between a reload for target shooting comparied to a factory defensive load. Many believe defensive shooting requires practice with defensive ammunition. Expensive practice, especially if learning.
I will suggest you forget about the laser. There is too much confusion in a self-defense situation to depend on a laser. Find a good self-defense firearm trainer and they will show you how to develop discipline to accurately place center of mass shots without using sights. A laser may provide better longer range shots, but as you realized, could let you down when really needed or just add enough confusion to reduce reaction time. Discipline in a solid hold, consistent point (maybe aim/sight picture with luxury of time), correct trigger prep, follow-through and recovery to another properly places shot will be valuable. Draw practice, dry -fire and senarios are necessary practice to mental and physical reaction. Again, a good instructor will be better than any amount of ammo.
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I don't believe that anyone can accurately measure COAL within .001" unless you are measuring from the ogive and not the tip of the bullet, because the bullets are just not that precisely made
If I understand it correctly, the ogive is any point on the curve of the bullet from the case to the tip, and in a 9mm RN the ogive is elliptical. I'm pretty sure that one side of the caliper is level on the base and the tip of the ogive barely touches the other other side, with rotation and yawing to make sure. With the Franklin digital calipers I am using I find it next to impossible to repeatably and reliably measure anything closer than 0.002. Unfy suggests getting some standard gauges and practicing, which is an idea I like.
But, identifying the base of the cartridge and the tip of the bullet is easy. Getting a series of bullets to a COAL of 1.125 is more difficult because it requires I apply the same pressure to the ram for each bullet. In the absence of a mechanical device operating the RAM lever getting reliable results depends a lot of my "feel" of the process. That's the BIG variable. Maybe I'm expecting too much accuracy and it all doesn't matter that much? My OAL's vary between 1.122 to 1.128, with an occasional outlier beyond that range. If that little difference can make a major difference in performance or accuracy then what about the distance between the point on the ogive nearest to the lands?
If nothing else, reloading 9mm cartridges is interesting, because it represents a lot I have yet to learn.
P.S. -- learning what kind of curve the RN bullet has, and using measurements from my RN bullets, I can create an equation which computes the total surface area of a lead bullet, something that would be useful in copper plating.
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Getting a series of bullets to a COAL of 1.125 is more difficult because it requires I apply the same pressure to the ram for each bullet.
And the seater is not contacting the tip of the bullet, but rather some point on the ogive, and often the distance from that point to the tip varies more than .001", so accurate measurement at the ogive requires an adapter for your calipers.
This issue comes up more often in handloading rifle cartridges
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so accurate measurement at the ogive requires an adapter for your calipers.
Oh, I see what you are saying ... measuring from the base of the bullet to where the seating die touches the bullet. I don't know how I could determine just where on the ogive the seating die touches with even an accuracy of 0.01", to say nothing of 0.001". I guess just measuring from the base of the cartridge to the tip of the bullet, as an expression of the OAL, would at least make sure the bullet can clear the clip and enter the chamber properly. The test rounds I have fired cycle smoothly and eject nicely, but if noise and recoil are any measure, and that is just another "feel" measurement, the 4.1gr shells are at the upper end of the pressure range for the Nano. I'll be watching for flattened primers and bulging cases.
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Do you realize that most modern 9mm handguns can safely fire +p and +p+ ammunition that has pressure far exceeding SAAMI max?
And I doubt most published reloading data exceeds even the 35,000 psi limit. I am not suggesting you ignore the recoil and ejection characteristics , but a chronograph would be very helpful in determining when approaching the max by comparing the velocity of your handload vs the expected velocity of the published data.
What am I getting at? I don't worry so much about exceeding SAMMI max pressures when I know my Glocks can take it. That being said, I do not really like the extra recoil, flash and noise of max loads, so I rarely go there.
The Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturing Institute (SAAMI) has set a pressure ceiling for standard pressure 9mm Para at 35,000 pounds per square inch (psi). By contrast, NATO pressure ceiling is 42,000 psi. In-between U.S. standard pressure 9mm and NATO spec, we have two options. 9mm +P has a SAAMI pressure ceiling of 38,500 psi. There’s no SAAMI spec for 9mm +P+; that’s just a way of saying its pressures exceed +P standards. …
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I don't believe that anyone can accurately measure COAL within .001" unless you are measuring from the ogive and not the tip of the bullet, because the bullets are just not that precisely made
I hadn't really thought/worried about 9mm bullet seating too much. I mess around with my .45acp loads quite a bit with different bullet shapes. The Lee seating die for .45acp is rather flat and really only hits the tip of the bullet. Seating is usually very consistent.
I pulled the seat punch out of my Lee 9mm die tonight and noted it has a significant cone (actually looks like it was drilled with a 60 degree center drill typically used for machine work to drill lathe centers). Putting number of Winchester 115 grain FMJ flat base into the punch I got variations of up to .006" with .003" variance the most common. Only tried some 20 bullets. Just doing some dirty testing, there was slight variation in the tips of the bullets (guessing different swag dies?). Since the tip of the bullets touch a 60 degree cone and bullets have slight variation at the point of contact it explains a lot of why OAL can vary by such an amount.
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Yes, seater die mismatches can have a big impact on consistent COAL. I think one company will even make you a custom seater plug (RCBS?)
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Do you realize that most modern 9mm handguns can safely fire +p and +p+ ammunition that has pressure far exceeding SAAMI max?
So, you're saying that the following warning in my Nano manual is just the usual CYA stuff?
WARNING: The extended use of +P or +P+ ammunition may decrease component part service life expectancy. DO NOT use sub-machine gun ammunition because the chamber pressure may reach or exceed proof load pressure. Lead bullets have a tendency to cause bore leading, which may dramatically increase the discharge pressure.
Be sure to remove all chamber and bore lead accumulation after each use. DO NOT shoot cartridges with jacketed bullets through a barrel previously fired with lead bullets before the bore is thoroughly deleaded.
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So, you're saying that the following warning in my Nano manual is just the usual CYA stuff?
From I understand a majority of smaller pistols like the Nano, PF9 etc aren't designed to digest the +p like a full size Smith & Wesson, Glock, Springfield, ad nauseum. But again not an expert.
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So, you're saying that the following warning in my Nano manual is just the usual CYA stuff?
NO, what I am saying is your OCD is flaring if you are worrying about .002" COAL
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OCD is flaring
Oh. Well, that's a distinct possibility. :D I've always been OCD for accuracy, which is why Bradford Labs made me their trainer for the entire oil field region in South West Texas.
But, 9mm dimensions being what they are, there isn't that much room to work with.
BTW, I measured the distance from the edge of the chamber to the beginning of the lands. 0.601" There is a distinct shelf there and when I stick an empty but sized cartridge into the chamber it comes to a definite stop against that ledge, leaving just enough shell protruding to allow the extractor a space to grab it.
Considering what you said about the ogive, it appears to me that the lands "touch" the ogive exactly where the ogive meets the casing, for a JRN bullet.
I found this posting, which is the first of six on reloading: http://www.czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=31914.0 (http://www.czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=31914.0)
Nice read.
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The 9mm Luger cartridge headspaces on the mouth of the casing. The case should be close to .380" diameter at the casing mouth. The bullet at the mouth is .355" (or so). Since the ogive starts at the mouth of most seated bullet styles, it is doubtful that your bullets are hitting rifle lands when chambered. Best way to tell would be to measure depth of a dummy cartridge (bullet seated to your intended COL) chambered in your barrel to the muzzle of the barrel. Them drop a free bullet into the chamber against the lands and measure that dimesion again. Easy to do with the barrel stripped from the firearm (and safer practice even though dummy ammo is used). It is useful to know a relationship of how far a bullet starts from a seated position on the casing to the rifling lands.
I have noticed change in accuracy by playing with .45acp by altering the dimension from seated to rifling. Can't say I have found any appreciable differences in my 9mm loads yet.
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Just measured some Winchester white box 115 gr. 9mm Luger and found COL of 1.149" to 1.162" in just 10 rounds. The average guy accepts that whatever in the box works with his gun...and it usually does.
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Them drop a free bullet into the chamber against the lands and measure that dimesion again
Good idea! Thanks!
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found COL of 1.149" to 1.162" i
Wow! I wouldn't have suspected that commercial ammo would vary that much. Now I am wondering how much variance there is in match grade ammo?
It's starting to give me the feeling that just slapping the stuff together and keeping the powder under max is all one needs to do. (But years of training would prevent me from being that sloppy.)
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Wow! I wouldn't have suspected that commercial ammo would vary that much. Now I am wondering how much variance there is in match grade ammo?
The match grade stuff I load for my 308 has a OAL of 2.73-2.74. I mic every 10th round.
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Thanks for the loan of the LEE Powder measuring tool, gsd!
I did the comparison and noted that your device does not display the gap that mine does. I've attached a jpg which shows the gap. It at the point, and on either side, where the rotor barrel meets the circular black core of the device. The when the rotor barrel is rotated up to receive the next powder charge the gap is right where the little white wiper pad is, allowing powder to trickle past. The powder falls to the bottom of the gap and when the tighter part of the barrel comes around it grinds the powder, increasing tension and making the handle more difficult to turn.
In the picture below I've marked the right side of the gap with red arrows and a line paralleling the gap. It is the dark shadow to the left of the line. As you can see, it proceeds on beyond the bottom red arrow and that is the part of the gap where most of the powder falls out. In the course of reloading 100 shells I'd estimate that 10 - 15 grains of powder fall out. The only way to minimize the powder falling out is to tighten the screw so tight that it is almost impossible to crank the handle without using two hands on the device.
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Lee has a pretty decent guarantee on their products. May be as well to spend the shipping and get a replacement.
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Well, my calibration for weights and caliper came in a couple days ago and I checked my balance and calipers. The calipers is right on.
I massed a series of weights from 1 mg to 5.7 grams and collected data points. I entered them into the solution for a Least Square Linear Regression to determine the function which best matched the data points. Here is the results:
actual mass = 0.999*mass reading + 0.204
Just as I suspected, the scale at the lower end shows a value which is lower than the actual mass, and at the high end of the scale they are much closer together. So, when I was reading "3.9" grains of HP-38 on the scale it was actually 4.1 grains. My "4.0" loads were actually 4.2 grains, which explained why they were so loud, recoil was greater than normal, and the casing was ejected twice as far as my lighter loads or my commercial stuff. If I want 3.9 grain loads I'd have to mass it to 3.7 grains on the scale. What I actually did was mass 10 charges (initially 20 but 10 worked well enough) on the scale and divide by 10 to see what a single charge would mass. I putzed with the 10 charges until my computed single charge was 3.87gr, which was as close as I could get to 3.9 gr. Loading 100 rounds and checking every twenty my 10 charge mass was within 0.1 grains of 38.7 each time, so that is what I am going to continue to do.