My jump into reloading after 55 years

[GreyGeek]

In fact, a void can and usually does exist immediately under the baffle,

That's the key if, in fact, a void is observed.   The HP-38 powder I am using behaves very similar to water.  Being opaque, IF I put a baffle in the hopper any void under the baffle would be invisible unless the baffle fit tightly against the sides of the hopper and allowed one to see underneath the baffle while the powder was flowing.  A "^" shaped baffle may allow this.

I could also  see a baffle working for the larger, rod shaped powders which would flow less eaily than the very fine HP-38 type particles.

Basically, I'm a "doubting thomas" until I see the evidence with my own eyes.   BTW, after setting my LEE powder dispenser rotor so that twenty charges gives an average weight of 3.91 grains, I reloaded another 100 rounds.  Testing the weight before, during and after the 100 rnds, the balance zeroed on each individual charge, which turned out to be 3.85 grns.   There appears to be some discrepancy between weights taken at the low end of the scale and the higher end.   Twenty charges gave 78.2 grains, (3.91 gr avg) but individual charges weighed at regular intervals gave 3.88 gr.

I am also somewhat surprised at the variation in OAL with very small differences in ram pressure when seating the bullet, even though the ram is stopped each time.  Lighter pressures will give OAL's of 1.128 or 1.129 and heavier pressures will give 1.122 or even 1.120.   The big question for me is "How much difference in chamber pressures on a 9mm 124 gr JRN in a 3" barrel will a difference in OAL of 1.125 +- 0.005 gr will make?   And, adding to that, the difference in chamber pressure that a powder difference of 0.03 gr will make?    Will this throw the bullet all over the target?

When I loaded what I  thought was 10 3.9 gr rounds and 10 4.1 gr rounds the difference in loudness and recoil was significant, and I wasn't experienced enough then to realize what the difference in  OAL would make.    Reloading 9mm casings with a specific 124 gr bullet and powder is not a simple task.  It  is sure a lot harder to do than I remember reloading that 30-06 ammo was.   Maybe that's why 7 yards is used a lot in handgun practice?

[unfy]

I am also somewhat surprised at the variation in OAL with very small differences in ram pressure when seating the bullet, even though the ram is stopped each time.

A press exerts a lot of force.  Depending on your press, you can possibly cause some deflection / torsion in the press frame, ram, shell, etc.

One of the keys to reloading is consistency.  Not only does this mean consistency in the components you use, but also consistency in YOU.  When dropping charges, develop a rhythm so that the 'knock knock' is always consistent (this a bit harder in the all-plastic Lee PPM).  When seating bullets, develop a consistent felt resistance.  If this happens to be bearing down on the press or somewhere in between.. .that's up to you.  Primer seating is by feel as well.  You'll get the rhythm / hang of it.

Maybe that's why 7 yards is used a lot in handgun practice?

Typical engagement distance actually...


edit: fixed quote block

[SS_N_NE]

I will atest that gun propellant is nothing like water.

I am a volunteer firefighter and just took some training on grain bin rescue. We buried people up to their armpits in corn. Built a tube around them, pushed the tube into the corn, bailed the corn in the tube and the victim simply climbed out. Obviously, a fluid would not behave that way. Grain is very similar to gun propellant.
As pointed out earlier, I did quality control work in the semi-trailer industry and did load testing on trap doors of grain trailers (and other media like crushed rock). Placement of baffles did play a part in loading on release doors and could be positioned to ensure whether a door would function or not with a load.
So yes, a baffle will make a difference in gun propellant by limiting the column load seen at the meter portion of a power drop.
I use an RCBS powder drop with a pistol meter assembly. The design of the drop allows for a good smack of the meter against the body of the drop and causes a "clack" that can help powder settle. I let the meter hit the top and bottom of the body during a cycle as consistently as I can and it seems to be pretty accurate and repeatable. It is never going to be exactly the same in small amounts because shaped material will never fill the same space the same way again. I have even seen forum posts where people were using electric vibrators mounted to their powder hoppers to try to get a consistent settle of material.

The other day, I had a .0001" dial indicator attached to a milling machine to square up a vise. I showed a guy that works with me that I could press on the top of the mill and deflect the indicator rather easily. That mill is much more massive than a reloading press and the press will develop much more force than the force I was pushing down on that mill.

Like most things that require quality assurance, a process needs to be developed for repeatability and an acceptable range of deviation created. I imagine an indicator could be set up on a press as a pressure indicator.  I have measured a lot of factory ammo and it can have considerable variation in COL. 

[Jutty]

I decided to make 10 rds with 3.9 grs and 1.125" OAL and 10 rds with 4.1grs and 1.125", staying on the low side to make up for any extra kick the magnum small pistol primers might give.

I read this, and thought, 'Isn't this a huge no-no?'

[unfy]

I read this, and thought, 'Isn't this a huge no-no?'

In general, yes.  You're changing the burn rate of the powder, possibly damaging the flash hole in your brass, and other issues.

With that said... most reloaders will tinker.  I'll just hope he started off with a very light load that's at least 10% under suggested starting (or far more), and has been working up to where he is now while keeping any eye out for pressure signs, gun behavior, etc.

[GreyGeek]

I'll just hope he started off with a very light load that's at least 10%

That's exactly  what I did.  The max load was 4.4gr and I started at 3.9 gr.  I found that the 3.9 gr load recoiled just like the commercial rounds, and sounded the  same.  The 4.1 gr load had a definitely larger recoil and was  a lot louder.  The casing ejected 50% or more farther.   I didn't see any flattening of the primer and the cases didn't appear to be bulging on the 4.1 gr load.

It has amazed me to realize how tight the tolerances are when reloading a 9mm casing.  The 3.9 gr of powder  fills the case over half full, and when I seat the 124 gr JRN bullet its base is just above the powder.  It wouldn't take much more powder to create a compressed load.  Minor  variations in ram pressure can produce 0.005" variations in OAL, which can have significant effects in chamber pressure.  The balance that came with my kit is suspect.  It "should" give me a weight that is 10 or 20 times the weight of a single charge when I put 10 or 20 charges into the pan, but it doesn't.  The averaged weight can be different from the single charge by as much as 0.3 gr, which can be the difference between a good round and over pressure.

I've realized one mistake I made getting back into reloading and that is being too cheap.  My previous 30-06 and shotgun shell  reloading experience had a lot more room for errors without effecting results, but not so with reloading 9mm casing and expecting reliability in accuracy.   I was way to cheap in choosing equipment.  IMO, the Lee 50th Anniversary Press is NOT consistent enough to load 9mm casings reliably. I don't trust the balance.  The Lock Bushing allows too much vertical play.  The  digital  calipers can give a difference in OAL of 0.002"  - 0.004" just based on how "tight" you adjust it, or if you are rotating or sliding the bullet to find the "highest" point on the tip of the bullet.     "Feel" is not reliably  reproducible.

I should have purchased a turret press with automatic powder, primer and bullet feeders, and instead of using human power to work the ram up and down and rotate the turret, have a sealed electric motor powering the whole works for consistency.  But,  alas, my wife would complain about the price, rightly so, and, I tell  myself, I am not reloading that many bullets.   Just enough to practice for various scenarios under 30 yards that might happen.

So, rather than blame my tools, I will enjoy honing my skills.  Besides protecting myself and my wife from a madman, I am also in it for the fun.   If I had a dollar for every round I fired before I turned 40 I could have retired at 40.

[GreyGeek]

I read this, and thought, 'Isn't this a huge no-no?'

I was concerned about that when I saw a brick  of CCI SMPs setting on the shelf at Scheel's.  Actually, it was setting on TOP of the shelf behind some stuff.  IF I weren't 6'5" I would have never noticed it.   Anyway, concerned, I drove home and did a search about using SMPs instead of SPPs.   Most anecdotal tales said that no harm, no foul if one starts at the low end of the powder range and test the loads, working up.  So, that is what I decided to do.  However, when I got back to Sheel's (only a mile from my place) that box was gone.     Sheel's primer case has been empty every since.

[GreyGeek]

I will atest that gun propellant is nothing like water.

Like I used to tell my physics students "Theory proposes but experiments (or experience) disposes"

[JTH]

That's exactly  what I did.  The max load was 4.4gr and I started at 3.9 gr.

Actually, what he said, and what is suggested, is that you should start 10% below the suggested starting load, not the suggested MAX load.

Basically--if you are putting together a recipe that bears little relation to what is actually given in the reloading manual (and truthfully, you should always look at several reloading manuals, not just one), particularly if you are using magnum primers, you should start extremely conservatively.

If you find it isn't enough to work the action, no problem.  You just add more powder.  You DON'T want to have the opposite end of the spectrum problem, however.

I note also that when comparing loads, you don't want to change the OAL if you are doing powder checks.  Once you have a powder amount in the range you like, then try different OALs.  (Carefully!)  After some work with that, then try combinations in your preferred range.  However, comparing one load at one OAL to a different load at a different OAL is useful only if you want to compare those two loads.  If you are actually trying to work up an optimum load, that just isn't going to be the most useful way to do it.

Plenty of people use magnum primers in 9mm loads, and don't worry about damaging the flash hole.  (I do on occasion, if I'm out of small pistol primers.)  However, it does make the round act differently, so unless you already KNOW that the difference is not dangerous and that the difference in performance doesn't matter to you, you should drop the powder charge a bit and actually go test it carefully.

When I'm working up a new load, I tend to make 20 rounds on the low end, and then 20 rounds for the next 0.1 grains of powder up from there for about 0.5 grains. I take them out and test them for slide action, recoil, a little bit of accuracy (not much, this is just an initial test), and across a chrono for speed.

That gives me enough info to see 1) what the load does in general, and 2) how much the load changes per 0.1 grain.  (I'll note that you can't take that for granted, though--certain powders change smoothly up to a point, and then suddenly change drastically.)

When I've got a couple of variations that I like (a good solid workable load, and loads 0.1 grains on either side of it) I make 50-100 of each and take them out to the range for serious testing for accuracy, speed, and recoil characteristics.  (I rarely change OALs, simply because I know what OALs feed reliably in my guns, so I stick with that.  One less variable for me to care about.)

Also: powders simply do not behave like fluids.  There are certain specific circumstances in which powders CAN behave similarly to fluids (notably, when under constant vibration) ----but a reloading press is not one of them.  Indeed, empirical data is the way to go.

I note that this entire thread really needs to be in the reloading forum, not the training forum.

[GreyGeek]

Actually, what he said, and what is suggested, is that you should start 10% below the suggested starting load, not the suggested MAX load.

You're right.  When he wrote "10% under" I saw that as referring to the max load so often that I assumed it was what he was saying skipped to other parts.

[GreyGeek]

When I'm working up a new load, I tend to make 20 rounds on the low end, and then 20 rounds for the next 0.1 grains of powder up from there for about 0.5 grains.

mmm..... I wish my scale could accurately measure and the powder dispenser could reliably dispense at 0.1g increments.  I've really been disappointed with this Lee 50th Anniversary Loader.

I really  don't like the concept that the scale uses magnetic damping to bring the pointer to the zero mark.  55 years ago the Pacific scale I used required that you set the weight on the scale and trickle grains until two successive swings of the  pointer were on equal sides of the zero point.    In college and grad school, and at Bradford labs, the same swinging pointer method was standard.

The powder dispenser binds going down and occasionally leaks powder from the bottom of the cylinder.  You can see the bottom of the circular section where the rotor tube attaches pull slightly away from the frame and drop powder on the bench.  I've taken it apart and noticed scratching on the  inside of the rotating circular black  piece.  The lever arm causes the central  part to rock sideways in its frame.

When I am flaring the casing and seating the primer I have to push the casing back into the holder so it centers over the primer tool as I bring the ram down.

[SS_N_NE]

When I am flaring the casing and seating the primer I have to push the casing back into the holder so it centers over the primer tool as I bring the ram down.

Your cases do not stay centered in the holder when retracted from the die? The Lee flare (powder) die does have a sliding part that is intended to 'click' and aid a powder drop when used to add powder in the die. Typically, the primer is already installed before the flare step, so I have never tried to see if the case remained centered.
I deprime dirty/used cases with a Lee universal decapping die. Tumble the brass in stainless pins. Then run the clean brass through the caliber specific size/deprime die. That way dirt is not pressed into the die or case. Due to the shape of 9mm, it seems to take a bit of force sometimes to size. Not a lot but more than a .45acp case (just my experience). Case lube makes things easier/smoother and a very, very, small amount of lube is required (basically just trace amount from fingertips).Then I flare. Add powder in small lots sitting in a tray,visually check powder fill/level and quality check weight about every 10 (and rarely have a significant variation). Then seat bullets and quality check COL. Then size with a Lee Factory Crimp die. More of a size than a crimp really, but gives the cartridge it's final shape.
A couple .001" should not be a significant issue. You can vary cartridge length just cycling it through a gun a number of times (hitting ramp drives bullet into case).
Precision measuring is an art. I have a set of gage blocks (precision steel blocks that are usually .00000x" in tolerance). I occasionally check measuring tools like calipers or micrometers against these blocks, not only to ensure the tool is set properly, but also to check my fee/technique for using that tool.  The typical low cost (under $100) calipers are not very rigid and can have a wide accuracy, coupled with inexperienced technique, measurments can be pretty wild. It is easy to push calipers too hard and get an incorrect measure.  Gage blocks are not horrible expensive and can be found at online machine tool supplies or eBay (for real cheap buys). Find a 1" or something close to your cartridge COL and make some practice measures until you can find a consistent feel that yeild the block dimension reliable. Will greatly improve measuring practices.

[unfy]

Quote from: unfy on Yesterday at 10:53:49 PM
I'll just hope he started off with a very light load that's at least 10%

That's exactly  what I did.  The max load was 4.4gr and I started at 3.9 gr.  I found that the 3.9 gr load recoiled just like the commercial rounds, and sounded the  same.  The 4.1 gr load had a definitely larger recoil and was  a lot louder.  The casing ejected 50% or more farther.   I didn't see any flattening of the primer and the cases didn't appear to be bulging on the 4.1 gr load.

The starting load being 3.9gr - I would have started at 3.4 or 3.5 with the magnum primers, personally.... not at 3.9gr.  Sorry for any confusion.  And I see that this has been addressed in the above posts, good .

IMO, the Lee 50th Anniversary Press is NOT consistent enough to load 9mm casings reliably.

I've not fiddled with the Lee 50th kit myself.... but having worked with other Lee equipment, you should be able to produce factory or perhaps better quality ammo just fine.  I will say the Lee PPM does take some getting used to and might be impossible to hone perfectly (I've not spent a whole lot of time with mine yet... maybe 50 rounds?).  Can't speak for the scale, either.

The press and dies should be just fine though and should produce quality ammo.  As mentioned earlier by someone else, even huge honking chunks of steel / iron presses will deflect a bit when put under pressure. It's all about getting yourself consistent on the feel of what you're doing.

RCBS rock chuckers will deflect a little bit, my Hornadly LNL AP will deflect a little bit... it's just how it is.  Get yourself consistent so that what you do affects the tooling the same way every time and you should be producing consistent rounds (the PPM is a notable possible exception).

That said, attempting to produce benchrest ammo on the 50th would be slightly problematic, but attempting to produce benchrest ammo without $120-$250 seating dies and such are going to be issuey as well.  It *can* be done without them (read the opening of a Lee reloading manual and see the horn tooting heh)... but they definitely help.

Given that you seem to be fixating on thousandths and sub thousandths of an inch, are you also trimming your brass cases ? Uniforming primer pockets & flash holes ? Annealing case mouths so that grip is consistent along with neck trimming turning so that case wall thickness is uniform ?  Sorting brass by head stamp and weight ?

Probably not... as such... get the ammo COAL  +/- a thousandths of an inch, get your powder drop within +/- 0.1gr and go with it.  Find a load that does what you want and reproduce it.

I found that even quality plinking hand loads far outperform my ability to shoot for what it's worth.


edit: see strike through / italics for a couple minor word changes.

[JTH]

Given that you seem to be fixating on thousandths and sub thousandths of an inch, are you also trimming your brass cases ? Uniforming primer pockets & flash holes ? Annealing case mouths so that grip is consistent along with neck trimming so that case wall thickness is uniform ?  Sorting brass by head stamp and weight ?

Probably not... as such... get the ammo +/- a thousandths of an inch, get your powder drop with +/- 0.1gr and go with it.  Find a load that does what you want and reproduce it.

I found that even quality plinking hand loads far outperform my ability to shoot for what it's worth.

+1

I fling random range brass into a tumbler for 15 minutes, don't touch the primer pocket or flash holes, and crank out 500 rounds at a time from my Dillon press, occasionally checking that the powder is staying within 0.1 grains of what I want it to dispense in a case (occasionally = if it occurs to me, which is about once every couple of hundred rounds). 

While I'm sure it "affects" my accuracy, this is pistol ammo---the affect of the reloading differences on accuracy is significant orders of magnitude below the affects of MY shooting skills on accuracy.

[unfy]

GreyGeek: just as another note - for how precise and other stuff you're attempting to be, are you sorting your bullets ?  Berry's aint high quality stuff, they'll be +/- a few grains and  possibly +/- a thousandths of an inch in diameter as well.  Dunno about lengths, haven't really looked into that.  They're generally really close and 'mostly' consistent, but you've fixated a bit too much .

I can fully understand some frustration with the PPM.  Being plastic it... well... It does the job but I've not gotten it to fully cooperate yet.  I've not sat down with it and beat it into submission yet.  I believe there are others here on the forum that have gotten their PPM to work flawlessly.

And - just to clarify a little regarding my 'get a load and go' -- get a load your pistol likes that produces results down range that you like.  Using the numbers to get close to where ya want it so that you can double check safety and somewhat consistancy.  Keep track of these numbers, but realize that those numbers will have some 'color' to them in how your equipment behaves and how you behave.  If you're looking for higher quality pistol loads, run 200-1000 rounds at once for each step, this way you get a large batch of ammo created from the same 'run' with everything 'in the same working order' (assuming your equipment is broken in, you're being consistent and not tired) ... this way that large batch should be mostly uniform.  Ya can burn through a magazine or two to see how it's performing and adjust your shooting if need be.

With consistent input from you, your press should produce consistent results.  My lil lee aluminum C press gifted to me by SFG who had it for decades... produces consistent results (using lee dies as well in that press).

If someone will chime in regarding getting the PPM to cooperate better, that'd be cool.  I believe one person has mentioned keeping the tension screws relatively tight... for me, I had the opposite (needing them on the looser side)... but I've not fiddled with it much to get it ultra consistent yet.  Also, not sure if H38 is a type of powder that likes to go through a powder measure or not.

Give the drop tube a flick or two before and after each drop (ie: flick, turn handle, flick, turn handle)... it might get better results for ya. The PPM not being able to fully replicate the vibratory 'knock knock', flicking might help.

Others have had good luck with the lee auto-disk measure, haven't extensively used one myself.

For a stand alone measure, I'd prolly suggest an RCBS or Hornady metal thing.  Haven't used a Lyman myself, yet. I believe the Lyman has interchangeable inserts (the hornady does, entire cam can swap out).

[GreyGeek]

Given that you seem to be fixating on thousandths and sub thousandths of an inch, are you also trimming your brass cases ? Uniforming primer pockets & flash holes ? Annealing case mouths so that grip is consistent along with neck trimming turning so that case wall thickness is uniform ?  Sorting brass by head stamp and weight ?

Considering how  little  space is left in the casing with a 3.9 gr powder load, how insensitive the scale and measure are to 0.1gr differences, how much difference small changes in OAL can make to chamber pressures, etc.... I thought being cautious on OAL and powder charges was important.  I push the bullet into the case as far as it would go to see what the OAL would be -- 1.110", so the gap is only 0.025" with an OAL of 1.125"   

However, the sloppiness of the 50th kit would swamp any such fine adjustments as you noted.  My own accuracy in using my Nano isn't good enough yet, due to lack of sufficient ammo to practice until now, to merit such accuracy.     During the shooting phase of my CCW course only 2 of the 150 rounds I shot were outside the kill zone of the target but they were all over the map. Maybe in a couple thousand rounds I'll be able to hold a 3" group at 7  yards shooting offhand.    It looks like I used an 00 buck shotgun.   When I used to reload and shoot my accuracy was such that I only took head shots to save meat, and that included taking birds  out of the air with a .22, but I rarely shot a pistol, even when a deputy marshal.  When shooting my Nano on the range for the first time last week, out of the 20 rounds I tested 9 hit the 8" X 11" paper at 30 yards, and of those a couple were in the 3" bull, a couple were within an inch or two and the rest were on  the paper.  But that was shooting from a rest.  I also learned that the LaserMax was worthless in the daylight at that range.   I just couldn't see the red dot.  I could see  it at 7 yrds IF I used the iron sights first to locate it.  That's another surprise.  A green laser would be better.

[Dan W]

I don't believe that anyone can accurately measure COAL within .001" unless you are measuring from the ogive and not the tip of the bullet, because the bullets are just not that precisely made

[SS_N_NE]

I see a lot of things written about COAL.  A lot of popular pistol rounds headspace on the case.  So we are interested in the part of the bullet that will first engage the rifling when fired. Different shaped bullets (and various manufacturers) will result in different COAL just by the shape of the bullet. It is important to go by the manufacturers recommendation since they best understand the shape of their product. After you have a good understanding of how everything affects the other, you might depart from their recommendation applied to a particular firearm.
As just pointed out, tip to head dimension may be different than seat to rifling dimension that may have the greater impact on accuracy. This may be .020 out to .030" or any other number someone has determined is required that is simple the amount the bullet moves before it encounters rifling.
There is a consideration for pressure being lower when the bullet has a space to move before encountering the resistance of rifling. But, a few thousands up or down that allows the bullet to cycle/chamber without hanging up on the rifling usually fires fine without pressure issues. There is room for error.

A lot of us feel your pain on practice ammo. Since you seem most interested in defensive use, consider the difference between a reload for target shooting comparied to a factory defensive load.  Many believe defensive shooting requires practice with defensive ammunition. Expensive practice, especially if learning.

I will suggest you forget about the laser. There is too much confusion in a self-defense situation to depend on a laser. Find a good self-defense firearm trainer and they will show you how to develop discipline to accurately place center of mass shots without using sights.  A laser may provide better longer range shots, but as you realized, could let you down when really needed or just add enough confusion to reduce reaction time. Discipline in a solid hold, consistent point (maybe aim/sight picture with luxury of time), correct trigger prep, follow-through and recovery to another properly places shot will be valuable.  Draw practice, dry -fire and senarios are necessary practice to mental and physical reaction.  Again, a good instructor will be better than any amount of ammo.

[GreyGeek]

I don't believe that anyone can accurately measure COAL within .001" unless you are measuring from the ogive and not the tip of the bullet, because the bullets are just not that precisely made

If I understand it correctly, the ogive is any point on the curve of the bullet from the case to the tip, and in a 9mm RN the ogive is elliptical.  I'm pretty sure that one side of the caliper is level on the base and the tip of the ogive barely touches the other other side, with rotation  and yawing to make sure.  With the Franklin digital calipers I am using I find it next to impossible to repeatably and reliably measure anything closer than 0.002.  Unfy suggests getting some standard gauges and practicing, which is an  idea I like.

But, identifying the base of the cartridge and the  tip  of the bullet is easy.  Getting a series of bullets to a COAL of 1.125 is more difficult because it requires I apply the same pressure to the ram for each bullet. In the absence  of a mechanical device operating the RAM lever getting reliable results depends a lot of my "feel" of the process.  That's the BIG variable.   Maybe I'm expecting too much accuracy and it all doesn't matter that much?    My OAL's vary between 1.122 to 1.128, with an occasional  outlier beyond that range.  If that little difference can make a major difference in performance or accuracy then what about the distance between the point on the ogive nearest to the lands?

If nothing else, reloading 9mm cartridges is interesting, because it represents a lot I have yet to learn.

P.S. -- learning what kind of curve the RN bullet has, and using measurements from my RN bullets,  I can create an equation which  computes the total surface area of a lead bullet, something that would be useful in copper plating.

[Dan W]

Getting a series of bullets to a COAL of 1.125 is more difficult because it requires I apply the same pressure to the ram for each bullet.

And the seater is not contacting the tip of the bullet, but rather some point on the ogive, and often the distance from that point to the tip varies more than .001", so accurate measurement at the ogive requires an adapter for your calipers.

This issue comes up more often in handloading rifle cartridges