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Author Topic: My jump into reloading after 55 years  (Read 5998 times)

Offline GreyGeek

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My jump into reloading after 55 years
« on: March 29, 2013, 05:53:49 PM »
And thanks to Bigtony making a brick of SMPs  available to me I was able to begin reloading again.

My last reloading experience was using a Pacific Press, scales and dies to reload 30-06 ammo for my two M1 Garands, in the late 1950s.

A couple days ago 4 lbs of HP-38 arrived.  I had ordered it over a month  ago.  (Today, 8 lbs of Titegroup arrived.  It was ordered over three months ago.   I had given  up on it and even got a message from Powder Valley that the order was canceled, along with my CCI #500 primers order.  So, it was a real surprise when the UPS man showed up.   Hey, anyone still want to trade some of the HP-38 or Titegroup for some small pistol primers?)

Anyway, last night I did some  research on a recipe for Berry's 124 gr JRN and  HP-38.
Hodgdon  gave the following:
HP-38
124gr RN
Start 3.9 gr (1009 '/s)
Max 4.4 gr (1080 '/s)
OAL 1.125"

I decided to make 10 rds with 3.9 grs and 1.125" OAL and 10 rds with 4.1grs and 1.125", staying on the low side to make up for any extra kick the magnum small pistol primers might give.

I had previously purchased a LEE 50th Anniversary Loader for $109  from Amazon, and a LEE 4 carbide die set for $40.  I had purchased two sets of Quick Lock Bushings so that each die would have  its own  bushing and I could switch dies without having to readjust the die each time.  Or at least,  that was the plan.

I had also cleaned 500 brass casing.  The first thing was to adjust the die for inserting the primers.  That was straight forward using the info sheet that came with the dies.  The kit came with two primer  lever arms.  They appear identical. While I was at it I  followed the directions for setting the  other dies.  Using the depriming die the first couple used primers fell out and onto the floor because I forgot to hook the primer level arm onto the pin in the ram.    Correcting that, the remainder of the 500 used primers fell into the flexible plastic tube attached to the press.  The tube  was filled to the top with about 450 used primers.  As I deprimed each case I cleaned the primer hole with the hand tool that came with the reloading kit.   The depriming tool also resized the casing by restoring the desired roundness and diameter.

Next I needed to prime the cases.  I took out a pack of 100 SMPs from the brick and put them into the primer tray and placed the clear plastic lid on  the black plastic tray.  The instructions said to shake the tray side to side to tip the primers "upright".  What side is the upright side?  Shaking the  tray answered the question.   The side of the primer facing the powder is the "upright" side.  You should see the inside of all the primers staring up at you.  If you see the bright shiny side that gets hit by the firing pin then it is upside down.  I placed the Priming System loaded with primers onto the bracket I installed into  the press for that purpose.

When the press lever arm is pulled UP, the primer lever arm is tipped by the bottom of the frame to put the spring loaded cup holding the primer directly underneath the primer hole on the casing.  I firm but moderate lift against the resistance results in the feeling of the  primer sliding into the hole, followed by a firm stop of the press lever arm.  Once you get the feel of it there is little chance of lifting too hard on the arm of the press and setting off the primer.  I always felt the primer to make sure it wasn't protruding, and none ever did.  ALL were flush with the back of the case except one.  It was missing.  I retried but it was obvious that the primer hole was too big to hold the primer so I threw that case into the trash.

After that I used the "Powder Through Expanding Die" to open the mouth of the resized casing just enough to allow the base of the bullet be inserted into the casing after the powder is put in.  Making the opening too big can allow the bullet to fall onto the powder and later resizing it would over  work the brass, leading to cracking the case.  Open it just enough to barely grip the base of the bullet. 

This die has a pass through  to  allow powder fall into a primed casing while the  mouth is being opened slightly, but I could see no way to  mount the  powder measure  to the press.    I'm not sure it matters because after priming the case I  put it into a holder tray which I then pass under the powder measure tool and drop measured powder into each case one after  the other very quickly.  Then, a bullet can be started into  the mouth of each case while  it is setting in the  holding tray, readying it for the next step which is seating the bullet to the correct OAL with the "Bullet Seat And Feed Die".

My next task was to calibrate the powder dispensing tool that came with the reloading kit.  It is a stand alone device in  the kit I purchased.  I bolted it to the table I bolted the press to.  The documentation  that comes  with  the device is very clear.  It comes with a table listing the "Volume Measure Density" (VMD) for a large number of commonly used powders.  For  the  HP-38 the VMD is given as 0.0926.  I need 3.9 gr of powder so multiplying 0.0926 X 3.9 gr = 0.361 Cubic Centimeters of powder by volume.  (The Lee reloader I am using uses the Avoirdupois system so 7,000 grains equals 16 ounces or 1 lbs.  If you use  4 gr of powder per cartridge you should be able to reload about 1,700 rounds.)  The metering assembly has a rotor calibrated in cubic centimeters and the vernier around the barrel  of the assembly divides the measurement into tenths,  with  estimations to +- 0.05 CC.

That will only get you in the ball park.  A balance is still necessary for final calibration.  First, I filled the powder tank with powder and then I cycled the lever arm to dispense 50 or so charges into a small bowl, dumping it back into the tank when  it was nearly full.  I did this several times so that approximately all of the tank full of powder was cycled through the dispenser.  This is done so that the graphic on the powder lubricates all the interior surfaces of the device.  The documentation suggests that successive charges will get larger and larger until the device is lubricated if this lubrication step is avoided.  My own experience is that once lubricated there was NO difference in weight between the first charge dispensed and the last, 20 cartridges later.   So, I adjusted the roter to read 0.36 and then dispensed a charge into a case, then transferred the charge to my scale to weight it. I did small movements and retested until the charge dispensed zeroed the preset balance to  exactly 3.9 gr.   The balance itself is theoretically adjustable to +- 0.05 gr, but it takes practice to achieve that accuracy.  When I moved the rotor to dispense the heavier 4.1 gr charge I had to move the veiner only 0.15.  I would estimate that the 4.1 gr charge varied between 4.05 and 4.15, as did the 3.9 grain charge, so using the balance to make sure the dispensed charge is as accurate as the balance can be set to is important, because I found that the 0.2 gr difference  made a significant difference  on the range in  terms of loudness, recoil, smoke and how far the casing was ejected.

After all the primed casing were given the correct charge  of powder, with care taken to make sure that NO case received a double charge (which would be hard to  do because the case isn't  big enough  to  hold a double charge and the excess would fall on the  table) I installed the "Bullet Seat and Die Feed"  With the first bullet I  adjusted the nob on top  to  barely  touch the bullet while  the ram was at the  top  of its stroke. Then I backed off the ram, turned the nob half a turn, compressed the bullet, and then took  it out and measured the OAL with my electronic calipers.  I  found  that a 16th to an 8th of a turn would push the bullet another 0.02 inches into  the casing, so I used small increments  of the nob until the OAL was 1.125".   I noticed that a light pressure on  the ram stopping when the ram hit the top  of the press produced an OAL of about 1.128", while a firm pressure till the ram stopped gave an OAL of 1.123", so consistency of pressure application and stroking style is important.  While I was an analytical chemist for Bradford Labs, and later their trainer for regional labs, I found that consistency gave the best results when weighing or titrating.  If you have a habit of titrating while standing on your right foot only then always stand on your right foot.  If you hold your right foot 6 inches off the ground then always hold it 6 inches off the ground, not 3 or 9 or 12.   Believe it or not, such detail makes a distance because it affects how you read the meniscus, which translates into what you read as the titer volume.   Reloading cartridges, I found,  is just as sensitive.

With reloading done I took the 20 rounds out to the IKES range and gave  them a test fire  The 4.1 gr load was very loud and the ejected cartridge flew as far as my Winchester Super X 147 gr FMJ cartridges were ejected, and the recoil was just as much and the sound just as loud.  The 3.9 gr load was noticeably quieter and the cartridge did not eject as far, AND, there were no FTE problems with the lighter load.  So, that is the one I am going to  use with  the other 480 RN bullets.

I am amazed that 0.2 gr +- 0.05 gr can  make such a difference.  I know that 55 years ago, as a 16 or 17 year old kid I was ignorant of such things and just jammed powder and bullets together and took them out to shoot.  However, 4gr is much more than 40 gr and .2 gr won't make that much difference.  Had I been reloading a pistol back then I would have probably blown my gun  apart.



« Last Edit: March 29, 2013, 05:57:36 PM by GreyGeek »

Offline Bigtony

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Re: My jump into reloading after 55 years
« Reply #1 on: March 29, 2013, 06:23:02 PM »
Glad I could help your primer problem.  They are hard to find and the people that have them always try to stick it to ya.

Offline GreyGeek

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Re: My jump into reloading after 55 years
« Reply #2 on: March 29, 2013, 06:24:16 PM »
An Aside:
I was shooting on the 30 yard range into a target with a 3" bull  on an 8"X11" sheet of paper.   I had a total of 9 hits on paper out of 20 shots, 2 in the bull and 4 within an  inch  of the bull.  The rest of the shots were within 5 inches of the paper, on all sides.

I saw of video of Hitchcok45 shooting the Bretta Nano, my  pistol,  on his range.  He put 5 out of the 6 rounds in the magazine onto an 24" gong at 80 yards, off hand.   Remarkable.  At closer ranges he was exceptionally accurate and quick.

He has big hands, like  I do.  My problem is that when my trigger finger hits 90 degrees while closing, there is still a ways to go before the striker releases.  I have to pull so hard my hand starts shaking.  I've tried using the tip, the first joint and the second joint of my index finger but those positions are equally difficult.   There is just too much take up in the trigger pull before release.  No one can "accidently" fire this weapon if their fingers are as long as mine unless the weapon  is defective.

Offline SS_N_NE

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Re: My jump into reloading after 55 years
« Reply #3 on: March 29, 2013, 06:53:01 PM »
The kit came with two primer  lever arms.  They appear identical.

Maybe you already know and just didn't add the detail. The two primer arms that fit in the ram should be different. One is for large primers and the other for small primers.
The primers have to be shaken upright before the clear plastic cover is put on the primer tray of the safety prime or there will not be room for the primers to flip. After the primers are upright, the cover is installed.
Nice write up, just didn't want anyone to miss something.

Offline GreyGeek

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Re: My jump into reloading after 55 years
« Reply #4 on: March 29, 2013, 07:07:46 PM »
The two primer arms that fit in the ram should be different. One is for large primers and the other for small primers.

That's what I thought too,  but they appeared to me to be exactly the same size when  I  put them together  and put their cups together and on top  of each other.  What I  didn't do is measure the inside diameter of the cups.   So, I just did.  One is 0.2" and the is 0.17".  So, you are right!  By PURE luck I selected the one with the smaller inside diameter and everything worked out fine.  IF I had selected the other one the primers would have been too loose in the cup and I would probably have mashed or set off one of them crushing it against the primer hole edge. 

Offline SS_N_NE

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Re: My jump into reloading after 55 years
« Reply #5 on: March 29, 2013, 07:38:31 PM »
IF I had selected the other one the primers would have been too loose in the cup and I would probably have mashed or set off one of them crushing it against the primer hole edge.

That was my concern.

I have a breech lock Lee cast iron press. Started with .45ACP so the large primers could only fit the larger primer arm (and frustration when running accross the occasional Blazer .45 case with small primer hole). Then started doing 9mm when things were already sorted out. Just happened to stop into the Sioux City Scheels a couple of weeks ago...primer case was empty of pistol primers, but there was more rifle primers than normal (lately)...then noticed the pistol ammo case (otherwise devoid of pistol ammo) was full of primer boxes!!!! Got away with one box each of small and large (limit).

Offline unfy

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Re: My jump into reloading after 55 years
« Reply #6 on: March 29, 2013, 09:53:27 PM »
Welcome back into the family.

One of us...

One of us...

One of us...

*cough* ahem...

Anyway... glad ya had success.  And yes, going from 30-06 with it's huge powder charge to 9mm ... you'll easily discover that a few tenths of a grain can make a huge difference in how it fires.   Then again, 0.2 grains in a 30-50gr charge isn't much (a percent or so ?) ... but 0.2 gr in a 4gr case is like 8%?

Quote
with care taken to make sure that NO case received a double charge

Double charges are a concern, and a very important concern, yes.  As you know, it's the squib load that's FAR more dangerous ;).

hoppe's #9 is not the end all be all woman catching pheramone people make it out to be ... cause i smell of it 2 or 3 times a week but remain single  >:D

Offline GreyGeek

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Re: My jump into reloading after 55 years
« Reply #7 on: March 30, 2013, 08:19:43 AM »
it's the squib load that's FAR more dangerous

I entertained the idea  of making a squib load just to see of the SMPs were hot enough to push the 124 gr RNs out of the barrel, but after considering what I might have to do to get a stuck bullet out of the barrel I decided against it.

Anyone know IF an SMP is hot enough to push the bullet out of the barrel without any powder in the case?

Good to be back.  BTW, reloading is just as much fun as I remembered it.  Especially with pistol cartridges it is like taking care to make a fine painting, or build a nice lawn chair.  Precision, precision, precision, the hallmark of a great analytical  chemist! 8)
« Last Edit: March 30, 2013, 08:21:55 AM by GreyGeek »

Offline unfy

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Re: My jump into reloading after 55 years
« Reply #8 on: March 30, 2013, 08:58:03 AM »
standard large pistol primers can push a glue stick nub out of out a 1911 / 45acp.

dunno if small pistol primers got enough oomf for a similar glue stick bullet.

lead or jacket, i'd highly doubt it... thats ALOT more friction.... and rifles pipe on a squib for sure.

as an experiment, i should possibly attempt to purposefully squib a load... and use the pen microscope for pics.
hoppe's #9 is not the end all be all woman catching pheramone people make it out to be ... cause i smell of it 2 or 3 times a week but remain single  >:D

Offline SS_N_NE

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Re: My jump into reloading after 55 years
« Reply #9 on: March 30, 2013, 09:37:31 AM »
as an experiment, i should possibly attempt to purposefully squib a load... and use the pen microscope for pics.

Unfortunately, I have seen people experiment with this. There is significant difference between bullets (types, materials, jacketed or not, etc.) that can cause significant variable results. There is also differences in the action of  firearms that will change the results. Some bullets stick at the beginning of the rifling and others drop a short distance out of the barrel. A squib round is something all shooters should understand. If the bullet is stuck at the chamber and hasn't started full rifling, drive it back to the chamber with a soft rod (close fitting brass or wood dowel) and hammer. Or, if bullet has moved down the barrel, squirt in some lube and drive the bullet out to the muzzle.
I have removed a number of stuck bullets for people, but have never experienced one from one of my guns (lucky?).  When/if more than one round was fired into the stuck bullet, I have ran a slug through after the clear and the change in drag on the slug quickly tells if the barrel suffered bulging.
Had a guy give me a .357 to clear with 3 bullets in the barrel and two rounds fired after that apparently squirted out the front of the cylinder. He stopped when he noticed the lead hitting all around the shooting station dividers. The lack of holes in his target hadn't registered yet.
Saw in a recent issue of Handgunner mag. where bullets were stacked in a rifle and pistol barrel, there was 7 in the pistol...owner had reloaded!

Offline GreyGeek

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Re: My jump into reloading after 55 years
« Reply #10 on: March 30, 2013, 02:45:31 PM »
I reloaded another 100 rds of 9mm this morning.

When I  weighed the output of  the powder dispensing system it was exactly 3.9 gr, which is what I set it for yesterday when I loaded 20 test rounds to see if 3.9 or 4.1 gr of powder worked better.  About every 20 rounds I'd throw a charge  into the scale pan and weight it.   The  balance always zeroed.

After I finished I decided to do an experiment.  Rather than  weight 1 charge I'd collect 10 charges in  the pan and weigh it.  The weight came to 40.9 grains, with  per charge average of 4.1 grains!   ???

Also, while it is possible to read the vernier scale to 0.05 grains by getting two white lines to show, it doesn't appear that the scale is actually that sensitive.  A more realistic evaluation would appear to be +- 0.1 grains.   Even though a test before the 100 bullets were loaded, and a test of the charge at about every 20 bullets, and again at the end,  showed that they balanced with  the setting at 3.9 grains, it seemed to me that 10 charges would weigh 39.0 instead of 40.9 (+- 0.1). 

For pistol reloading it also casts doubt on  the wisdom  of weighing each charge on  the balance instead of using the powder dispensing tool.   1/10th of a grain can  make a difference with  some powders, especially when the volume of a 9mm round  leaves tight tolerances   The 1.125" OAL puts the back of the bullet just above the powder setting in the cartridge, avoiding making a compressed load.

From now on  what I am going to do is set the rotor on  the powder tool to an approximate setting, then dump 20 charges into the pan and weight  it and divide by 20.  Based on 1/20th of that total I'd make additional changes on the rotor and retest.  When 1/20th of 20 charges gives me the per round powder load that I want I'd consider the powder dispensing tool calibrated for the per round powder load.   Also, like water in a tank, the  higher the water level the greater the pressure at the bottom.  To insure a reproducible dispensing of a single charge I plan to keep the powder in the holding tank within an inch of the top of the holding tank.  For pistol rounds I am no longer going to rely on weighing a single charge.


Offline GreyGeek

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Re: My jump into reloading after 55 years
« Reply #11 on: March 30, 2013, 03:39:18 PM »
I did some experimenting with 20 charge weighings.  Moving the veneer in by a fraction of one minor division changed the mass from 79.2 (3.96 per charge) to 78.2 (3.91 per charge).   That's about as close as I can get it.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2013, 04:21:29 PM by GreyGeek »

Offline GreyGeek

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Re: My jump into reloading after 55 years
« Reply #12 on: March 30, 2013, 05:04:22 PM »
EDIT:  I miscalculated the cost of the bullets.  It was $27 for 250, not 500

I decided to figure out what reloaded costs me in terms of powder, primer, bullets and casing.
Quote
powder hp-38  1.683 cents per round  (7,000 / 4)
primer        3.0   cents per round       ($30 / 1000)
bullet        10.8   cents per round        ($27 / 500)
casing        1.6   cents per round ( $49 / 500 and  with six reloads)
TOTAL        16.083 cents per round
The cost of the LEE 50th Anniversary Reloading kit isn't in that, but that will last my son a life time after I am through using it.

As I write GunBot's lowest price for a 124 gr FMJ is 61 cents  per round.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2013, 05:54:18 PM by GreyGeek »

Offline SS_N_NE

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Re: My jump into reloading after 55 years
« Reply #13 on: March 30, 2013, 05:06:20 PM »
I plan to keep the powder in the holding tank within an inch of the top of the holding tank.  For pistol rounds I am no longer going to rely on weighing a single charge.

Don't know what powder measure you are using, but there are baffles available for most measures that effectively limit the column pressure. If you look up RCBS measures and their related baffle, it is easy enough to make a baffle from thin sheetmetal (some have used pop/beer can metal). It does have effect on repeatability. There will always be some deviation since the loads are small (especially if using something like W231/HP-38) and powder shape simply causes variation.
The way I look at it is that unless you are loading to an upper limit, a normal usable range will allow some flexability. I tend to go for accuracy (target shooting) and load to what the gun likes.  That seems to put the load into a generally mid range of the particular powder/application.  It is all a lot of guessing until a crony is used.

Offline Hank

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Re: My jump into reloading after 55 years
« Reply #14 on: March 30, 2013, 05:19:53 PM »
For pistol, I load 100 at a time; run the primed case up into the expander with the funnel up top.
I use a Frankford Arsenal electronic scale (amazing for $25. when purchased..always within .1g of other 2 scales) and measure about every 15-20 or so, then compare all 100 charged cases with a flashlight.
Same powder throw that came with your aniversary kit. Has to be the best $20.00 scale money can buy..haha or only one?

Offline GreyGeek

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Re: My jump into reloading after 55 years
« Reply #15 on: March 30, 2013, 06:01:50 PM »
A baffle like this?


I'm not sure that baffle behaves the way people think it does.  Just because the area directly above the hole into the dispensing tube is blocked and the powder has to flow through  one of the three holes on the side doesn't mean that the effective pressure in the tube is uniform as the level of the powder in the holder drops.

Offline SS_N_NE

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Re: My jump into reloading after 55 years
« Reply #16 on: March 30, 2013, 07:36:41 PM »
In my searches of everything reloading, there are numerous accounts of a baffle improving drop consistency. They basically followed the same 10-20 drop weight check. In testing of baffling in much larger media (grain loads in semi-trailers) there is indeed a load change since a good deal of the column load is on the baffle surface and division at openings impeding load even at those openings. It is also reported that drop consistency can even change if the cap is present or removed from the powder drop reservoir.
Since pistol loads are so light, I usually pour up to a certain level in the reservoir and maintain occassionally. Most times, I am only doing 100-200 rounds at a time.

Offline unfy

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Re: My jump into reloading after 55 years
« Reply #17 on: April 01, 2013, 12:20:02 AM »
For me... the baffle hasn't been too important.  Keeping a semi-consistent powder level in the tube helps more... or rather between a couple inches at a certain point gives consistent results.  Note, this is on a hornady lnl powder measure on the lnl ap press.  I get +- 0.1gr every time (with most being dead on).... and do sanity checks every 20 rounds at the start, then after 100 rounds, do sanity checks every 100 rounds.

Something to note about reloading... it's all about consistency.  If your volumetic powder measure throws consistently, then you're golden.

If you're using the Lee PPM, then... well... i've only put ~50 rounds through mine and found it to be a bit variable.  Haven't worked out a way to make it more consistent yet.

hoppe's #9 is not the end all be all woman catching pheramone people make it out to be ... cause i smell of it 2 or 3 times a week but remain single  >:D

Offline GreyGeek

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Re: My jump into reloading after 55 years
« Reply #18 on: April 01, 2013, 08:44:16 AM »
there are numerous accounts of a baffle improving drop consistency.

No doubt.   However, gun powder lubricated to flow more easily takes on the properties of a fluid and as such can be modeled by the same physics that models the flow of water in tall containers, and by Bernoulli's Principles, which models the flow of fluids.   In a hopper having holes at various heights the holes near the bottom shoot water out farther than holes near the surface because the pressure is greater.  The controlling variables are the height of the fluid in the hopper, the density of the fluid, and its viscosity.   The atmosphere is an example also.  The pressure at the surface is around 15 lbs/sq in.   If you take a barometer anywhere on  the surface, or inside any container or collection (baffles) of containers, as long as there is a path for the air to seep in and out the pressure at every point inside any container will be the same 15lbs.  As long as gravity is the only force it would be impossible for the pressure on the inside container to be more or less than than the outside pressure because removing are from the bottom or innermost container can only be done via gravity.

Look at it another way.   Say the baffle maintained a constant pressure at the hole in the bottom.  then the pressure on the underside of the baffle, above the hole, would have to be constant even if the pressure on the top side of the baffle varied due to the height of the powder in the hopper.   The pressure on the top side is a direct result of the density of the powder, its viscosity and the distance to the top of the powder.  So, as the height of the powder in the hopper dropped and the pressure on the top side of the baffle dropped, the pressure on the bottom side of the baffle remains the same?   Not possible.  If it did there would be an unbalanced force causing the baffle to "fly" up just the same way a the wing of an airplane gives lift because of the unequal pressures between the top and bottom of the wing.

Offline SemperFiGuy

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Re: My jump into reloading after 55 years
« Reply #19 on: April 01, 2013, 09:17:45 AM »
GG:

Powder, as a granular solid, behaves differently from water, which is a fluid.

Powder above the baffle pushes down on the baffle.   Then an upward force at the legs of the baffle pushes back up to resist the downward force on the baffle.   There is little or no upward pushing by the powder located under the baffle (which is unlike the fluidic behavior of water).

In fact, a void can and usually does exist immediately under the baffle, which is why the powder doesn't/can't push back up on the underside of the baffle (unlike water, which moves in under pressure to fill the void).

Under-the-baffle conditions are a separate local system from above-the-baffle conditions.  (Again, unlike the behavior of water.)   The downward forces at the holes in the baffle are supported by upward forces at the bottom of the powder tube.   Sideward forces at the baffle holes are minimal, due to the very low mass/weight of the powder.

Basically, solid granular powder behaves differently from a pure fluid.

Or else the powder baffle wouldn't work.   But--it does.

sfg
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