NFOA MEMBERS FORUM
General Categories => General Firearm Discussion => Topic started by: pfinn on July 12, 2013, 09:00:35 PM
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I have a cheap red-dot on a flat-top AR, and have been having a ton of trouble with accuracy. After a LOT of tinkering, I think the optics (or mounts) may be the culprit, and was looking to try an inexpensive but reliable scope (4x-ish).
I'm curious what you all recommend that fits that description.
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What is inexpensive to you?
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The Nikon P-223 is an excellent choice that can be found for under $150. The features and glass quality far surpass anything else in this price range. The BDC reticle is nice to have on the AR platform.
Here's one at $149.95 new unopened box. http://www.opticsplanet.com/nikon-p-223-3x32-bdc-carbine-rifle-scope.html (http://www.opticsplanet.com/nikon-p-223-3x32-bdc-carbine-rifle-scope.html)
Shop around and you might even find it lower somewhere else.
If you want variable power the Nikon Prostaff line will give you that with reticle choices for a few bucks more.
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What is inexpensive to you?
Hoping to be under $100, but not sure I'll find much at that price...
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Without knowing what kind of shooting/hunting you're doing with this setup...here are a coule of pretty good deals for around a $100.
http://www.samplelist.com/Bushnell-15-45x32-Elite-3200-Rifle-Scope-DEMO-B-P64113.aspx (http://www.samplelist.com/Bushnell-15-45x32-Elite-3200-Rifle-Scope-DEMO-B-P64113.aspx)
http://www.samplelist.com/Redfield-2-7x34-Revenge-Rifle-Scope-DEMO-B-P64088.aspx (http://www.samplelist.com/Redfield-2-7x34-Revenge-Rifle-Scope-DEMO-B-P64088.aspx)
Otherwise browse through SWFA's Sample List. They usually have some pretty good deals on demo's, plus they're a good company to deal with
http://www.samplelist.com/Riflescopes-C3391.aspx (http://www.samplelist.com/Riflescopes-C3391.aspx)
ETA: SWFA does price-match.
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That Bushnell Elite 3200 is probably as good of a deal as you will find for around $100. It normally goes for closer to $300, I would jump on it if I were you. Cheap optics generally are pretty bad. The Bushnell Elite line is a good value for the money.
What kind of problems are you having? Is it just large groups, or is your zero shifting?
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What kind of problems are you having? Is it just large groups, or is your zero shifting?
Mainly problem is large groups, although I believe the zero drifts a bit, hence my desire to change optics to rule that out or confirm it. Large groups means 6-8 MOA.
I don't believe it is sloppy technique, and I've tried the usual steps to bring the group together:
- Friends who are good shooters have tried it with the same results.
- I've torn the rifle down, scrubbed it clean, inspected the parts, lubed it up, and tightened everything back down (several times).
- I've shot hundreds of rounds with ammo ranging from 40gr to 75gr... and I sent those through a chronograph to make sure it wasn't a gas system or ammo consistency issue.
So, now I need to see what an optics change will do.
I'll take a look at that Bushnell.
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If you can save up a few more bucks...this would be something to look at. I've been using Bushnell scopes for quite awhile and have nothing bad to say about them.
http://swfa.com/Bushnell-1-4x24-AR-Optics-30mm-Rifle-Scope-Mount-Kit-P61994.aspx (http://swfa.com/Bushnell-1-4x24-AR-Optics-30mm-Rifle-Scope-Mount-Kit-P61994.aspx)
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Try putting your red dot on a friend's rifle that is known to shoot straight. Make sure you know what the problem is before you start buying things.
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How does your rifle shoot with iron sights? Better than 6 - 8 MOA?
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If you can save up a few more bucks...this would be something to look at. I've been using Bushnell scopes for quite awhile and have nothing bad to say about them.
http://swfa.com/Bushnell-1-4x24-AR-Optics-30mm-Rifle-Scope-Mount-Kit-P61994.aspx (http://swfa.com/Bushnell-1-4x24-AR-Optics-30mm-Rifle-Scope-Mount-Kit-P61994.aspx)
Pretty sure it isn't out yet
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Try putting your red dot on a friend's rifle that is known to shoot straight.
Good idea, I may try that next time I hit the range...
How does your rifle shoot with iron sights? Better than 6 - 8 MOA?
No irons, it has the low profile gas block and flat top upper with a rail...
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No irons, it has the low profile gas block and flat top upper with a rail...
Before buying another sight, buy some irons. They are essential. Troy makes great ones for flat tops.
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I have an optisan mamba. It cost like $125 with a mount. Its actually pretty decent for what it cost.
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I'm kind of an optics snob (apologies ahead of time) but I am of the opinion that you can't get a good optic that will have clear glass, hold zero, and be reliable without spending at least $300. I'm sure many people will disagree with me, but my experience with cheap optics has been pretty awful. The only one I've kept around is the Primary Arms Micro Red Dot, and that's sitting on my .22lr AR.
If you do want to save up for awhile and spend more money I'd recommend the following:
-Aimpoint PRO (if you want a red dot)
-Burris MTAC (if you want a 1-4x adjustable).
If you want to shoot longer range, you'll want a different recommendation as I have very little experience with high magnification optics. But I'd have to believe that the cheaper stuff will perform even worse at long range due to shifting zero, unclear glass, etc.
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I'm kind of an optics snob (apologies ahead of time) but I am of the opinion that you can't get a good optic that will have clear glass, hold zero, and be reliable without spending at least $300. I'm sure many people will disagree with me, but my experience with cheap optics has been pretty awful. The only one I've kept around is the Primary Arms Micro Red Dot, and that's sitting on my .22lr AR.
If you do want to save up for awhile and spend more money I'd recommend the following:
-Aimpoint PRO (if you want a red dot)
-Burris MTAC (if you want a 1-4x adjustable).
If you want to shoot longer range, you'll want a different recommendation as I have very little experience with high magnification optics. But I'd have to believe that the cheaper stuff will perform even worse at long range due to shifting zero, unclear glass, etc.
You're absolutely right. I have learned the hard way that cheap optics are just a hole in the ground where you throw money. For lower powered / shorter range stuff you can get away with lower priced optics but unless you find something on closeout or buy something used anything around $100 will probably be junk. It may have lots of bells and whistles, but it probably won't hold zero and the clicks probably won't be repeatable. For lower priced stuff Primary Arms has a good reputation. Stay away from Barska, Leapers, BSA, etc.
When you go to longer ranges you really need to start spending money. I had a Weaver 3-10 Grand Slam on my .308 for a while and it was a very good scope for the money. It had decent (not great) glass and the adjustments were repeatable, which IMO is the most important thing.
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If you're sticking with less-expensive red dots, check out what Primary Arms offers. They have 'clones' of Aimpoints, but guys on AR15.com rave about the quality.
Or you could save $400 for an Aimpoint PRO. Outstanding optic.
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Thanks for all the input.
Keep in mind, I am mainly looking for a diagnostic tool to help figure out the accuracy issues. Once I know the rifle is solid, I'll spend on good long-term optics.
Still looking at other (inexpensive) options too, since a crappy diagnostic toll may not help me diagnose anything.
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I'll say it one more time. GOOD IRONS. Try Troy.
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+1 for troy irons. You can put the front on the gas block and not worry about the plastic one getting a little gooey from blasting tons of rounds down range. Magpul even says not to put them on the gas block. I did get a Magpul MBUS rear sight though.
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Start with irons move to optics. Buy once cry once.
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That Bushnell Elite 3200 is probably as good of a deal as you will find for around $100. It normally goes for closer to $300, I would jump on it if I were you. Cheap optics generally are pretty bad. The Bushnell Elite line is a good value for the money.
What kind of problems are you having? Is it just large groups, or is your zero shifting?
I agree this sounds like a good deal and so does the Nikon for $149
Whatever if you decide on a scope, the Burris PEPR is a good mount and that will set you back another $80 or so.(I think they were $60 when I bought my first one). I prefer the PEPR mount over the similar RRA but one of those would work nice too.
The last scope I put on a AR has a Redfield 3-9x50 in a PEPR mount and it works decent. About 1.5" groups but that more to do with being a cheap pencil barrel (DPMS Oracle).
ETA- not sure what you have been using but a rifle rest of some sort is pretty essential to seeing what kind of accuracy the rifle is capable of.JME