NFOA MEMBERS FORUM
General Categories => Shooting Sports => Topic started by: bkoenig on August 08, 2013, 12:43:26 PM
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I want to start shooting some USPSA matches. I've done it once before but I would like to try and hit some matches a little more regularly and actually get classified. I'm planning on using a CZ-75B and I have a few equipment questions, hopefully one of the regulars can help me. I plan to shoot Production class.
1. I understand that external hammer guns like the CZ start with the hammer down. Does the hammer need to be all the way down, resting on the firing pin, or can it just go to the half cock notch? It seems to me that half cock would be safer.
2. I believe any external modifications that change the profile of the gun are not allowed in Production. Am I correct in interpreting that as meaning grip tape on the front strap of the grip is ok? Also, I believe aftermarket grips are ok as long as the profile isn't changed, so Hogue wraparound grips with the finger grooves would be illegal but a set of checkered wood grips that have a different shape than factory are fine as long as they don't extend out past the frame. Is that correct?
3. Related to #2, are larger aftermarket sights allowed? The factory CZ sights are pretty small so I've considered replacing them. I think I've seen where guys run aftermarket sights in Production, but it seems to me that it would change the gun's profile.
4. I think I read somewhere that there's a restriction on mag holders, meaning they need to hold spare mags vertically. The one I have now holds the mags at about a 15 degree angle from vertical.
I'm sure I'll have more as I think of them.....
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1. I understand that external hammer guns like the CZ start with the hammer down. Does the hammer need to be all the way down, resting on the firing pin, or can it just go to the half cock notch? It seems to me that half cock would be safer.
This might answer your question...
http://www.uspsa.org/uspsa-NROI-ruling-details.php?indx=30 (http://www.uspsa.org/uspsa-NROI-ruling-details.php?indx=30)
2. I believe any external modifications that change the profile of the gun are not allowed in Production. Am I correct in interpreting that as meaning grip tape on the front strap of the grip is ok? Also, I believe aftermarket grips are ok as long as the profile isn't changed, so Hogue wraparound grips with the finger grooves would be illegal but a set of checkered wood grips that have a different shape than factory are fine as long as they don't extend out past the frame. Is that correct?
I believe your statements are correct, but I don't have any specific reference other than the USPSA rule book. It shows diagrams of how the external can be "modified" with grip tape. Though I'm not sure if the finger grooves would be illegal. This is from the USPSA rule book...
• For semi-automatic Production guns, grip tape, grip sleeves, checkering, stippling or other texture may only be applied in the areas shown in appendix E4. Glue and grit is considered the same as stippling.
• Replacement grip panels are allowed provided they do not extend below the butt of the gun to form a make-shift magwell.
3. Related to #2, are larger aftermarket sights allowed? The factory CZ sights are pretty small so I've considered replacing them. I think I've seen where guys run aftermarket sights in Production, but it seems to me that it would change the gun's profile.
I don't think there is any restriction in the sights, as long as they are "notch and post" style.
4. I think I read somewhere that there's a restriction on mag holders, meaning they need to hold spare mags vertically. The one I have now holds the mags at about a 15 degree angle from vertical.
There is not a restriction on the angle of the mag holders. However, there IS a restriction stating that they can not be forward of the hipbone (this also applies to holster) and that there is a maximum distance from the inner belt. With that said, most Production division shooters will have the mag holders mostly vertical because you will need more of them than those in other divisions who carry fully loaded magazines. Thus, having angled magazine pouches would likely require your 5-7 magazines to be spread all the way around the back of your belt, and possibly out of reach.
With that said, my last couple of magazine pouches on the back of my belt are angled slightly towards my weak side hip so that they are easier to access.
That's my limited two cents. Hope it helps.
Fly
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This might answer your question...
http://www.uspsa.org/uspsa-NROI-ruling-details.php?indx=30 (http://www.uspsa.org/uspsa-NROI-ruling-details.php?indx=30)
Thanks for the input - I think that link is not quite what I'm looking for, though, since my gun is not a decocker model but one with a safety instead of a decocker. It has to be manually lowered.
I had a decocker until last week when I sold it and bought the safety model ;D
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Pretty sure you can just engage the safety with the hammer cocked fully.
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I could be wrong, but I think Production starts hammer down while Limited starts with hammer cocked & safety on.
From searching teh interwebz it seems like there's a lot of debate about this.
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I could be wrong, but I think Production starts hammer down while Limited starts with hammer cocked & safety on.
From searching teh interwebz it seems like there's a lot of debate about this.
I think this is more gun specific instead of division specific. A traditional 1911 for example has to obviously be in a different state than my XDm.
8.1.2
Self-loading Pistols:
8.1.2.1 “Single action” – chamber loaded, hammer cocked, and the safety engaged.
8.1.2.2 “Double action” – chamber loaded, hammer fully down or de-cocked.
8.1.2.3 “Selective action” – chamber loaded with hammer fully down, or chamber loaded and hammer cocked with external safety engaged (see Divisions in Appendix D).
8.1.2.4 With respect to Rules 8.1.2.1 and 8.1.2.3, the term “safety” means the primary visible safety lever on the handgun (e.g. the thumb safety on a “1911” genre handgun). In the event of doubt, the Range Master is the final authority on this matter.
I think 8.1.2.2 would apply to your CZ and "...hammer fully down..." says to me that it can not be half-cocked.
Fly
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Production Division only allows double action guns. So yes your CZ hammer has to be manually lowered before holstering. Cocked and locked can only be in Limited, Limited 10 or Open (and Single Stack)
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I had a decocker until last week when I sold it and bought the safety model ;D
Have fun riding that hammer. :)
Really, IMHO, it is a production gun and should be allowed as intended to be used.
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CZ's are actually pretty easy to decock manually, as long as you pay attention and be careful. Not something I would want to do under duress, but I feel comfortable enough with it.
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I suggest you shoot limited class and shoot the gun the way you want to?
If not interested in racing, and racing guns, there is a group shooting IDPA at Big Shots in Lincoln. You can get on their email list and get copied on their shooting schedule.
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I suggest you shoot limited class and shoot the gun the way you want to?
Limited division is fun. Of course, Limited minor with low capacity magazines (compared to the rest of the people in the division) isn't nearly as fun.
Or instead, as was said, simply shoot the gun in the division it fits, and manually drop the hammer at make ready. Works perfectly well, as the many others who shoot CZs in Production will tell you. :)
If not interested in racing, and racing guns, there is a group shooting IDPA at Big Shots in Lincoln. You can get on their email list and get copied on their shooting schedule.
Just a note: There's an entire division of USPSA for people who don't have racing guns, nor are they needed---and while IDPA is a perfectly decent sport on its own, using IDPA to subtly denigrate USPSA is not useful.
By all means, everyone should try IDPA. And USPSA. After all, it isn't an either/or proposition. And people with non-racing guns work perfectly well in USPSA. (Matter of fact, Production division tends to have the largest number of shooters at the ENSP monthly matches.)
Thinking about it further, my G34 works in IDPA's SSP division---and would be considered "stock" and thus I wouldn't have to shoot it in ESP. And that's the gun I use for USPSA Production division, so I'm thinking "race gun"---not so much.
Brian asked about USPSA, so people answered about USPSA. People interested in competition should indeed check out both USPSA and IDPA.
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I was looking at Production because as I understand it if I were to compete in Limited I would be at a disadvantage due to being in Minor power factor (it's a 9mm). I'm not really concerned about decocking, if you pay attention it's easy to do safely. I was just surprised that it requires the hammer to be fully lowered. That seems kind of backwards when a half cock notch is available. Not a big deal, I just wanted to make sure I understood correctly.
The reason I was planning on trying USPSA is because most of the people I know who shoot competitively shoot that. ;D. I do plan to try IDPA, also.
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I'm not really concerned about decocking, if you pay attention it's easy to do safely. I was just surprised that it requires the hammer to be fully lowered. That seems kind of backwards when a half cock notch is available. Not a big deal, I just wanted to make sure I understood correctly.
If I recall correctly, this was added to the rules (hammer fully down) due to the fact that on certain guns, "half-cocked" actually takes out some of the trigger pull weight and the trigger pre-travel---and it is certainly true that firearms manufacturers (who build some gun versions specifically for competition) would certainly create DA/SA guns with a "half-cocked" position that was far closer to their SA weight than their DA weight.
Gamers, all of 'em.
:)
75B will work just great in Production---and you might talk to John Victor about CZs at the range sometime, because I believe he has the most experience with using CZs in USPSA out of the local folks who shoot.
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9mm is a disadvantage only if you miss the A zone. I was not denigrating USPSA, I just did not see a reason he would want to shoot in production class over limited. He has explained.
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I think this is more gun specific instead of division specific. A traditional 1911 for example has to obviously be in a different state than my XDm.
I think 8.1.2.2 would apply to your CZ and "...hammer fully down..." says to me that it can not be half-cocked.
Fly
The CZ75B would fall into the 8.1.2.3"selective" category. It can be carried hammer down or cocked and locked(hammer back safety on). The B series cz75s have a firing pin block so the firing pin cannot move unless the trigger is pulled. I dont know about the class issue...I say shoot a class that allows you to function like you were carrying the gun as ccw. The rest is a waste of time IMHO
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The CZ75B would fall into the 8.1.2.3"selective" category. It can be carried hammer down or cocked and locked(hammer back safety on). The B series cz75s have a firing pin block so the firing pin cannot move unless the trigger is pulled. I dont know about the class issue...I say shoot a class that allows you to function like you were carrying the gun as ccw. The rest is a waste of time IMHO
Correct---since it could be either way, the choice being made has to do with what division it is in. (Not class. :) In USPSA, "class" means something else.) In Production division, the start would require hammer down. If shot in Limited, starting cocked and locked would be perfectly legal.
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I think pistol whipping the target should be an option. The CZ is certainly heavy enough to be used as an impact weapon :)
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There are two reasons why I like to shoot Production division...
1) I'm not competing against others who have spent considerably more modifying their gun than I am able to. Specifically, external modifications which would provide an advantage over others shooting a more stock pistol.
2) Right now I see myself as more of a fundamentalist action shooter. While I don't fault anyone for shooting in the division they so desire (and some day I may branch out to other divisions), I think of the Production division as requiring the most skill due to the lack of advanced equipment. No red dot sights or gigantic funnels attached to the mag well. You are forced to have the fundamentals down pat to excel. It is more (I know it is not the same thing) of what it would take to survive an attack where you had to use your carry gun.
To each his/her own though.
Fly
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Production division is an excellent division to shoot in and start in. It is all scored "minor" so the 9mm is not a disadvantage at all.
Some of us have moved out of production for various reasons, and it is all good fun. Nobody will fault you for any division you decide to shoot. The only time you'll get flack is if you aren't safe - then you get LOTS of flack - and DQ'd. :)
Come join the fun!
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Some of us have moved out of production for various reasons, and it is all good fun. Nobody will fault you for any division you decide to shoot. The only time you'll get flack is if you aren't safe - then you get LOTS of flack - and DQ'd. :)
Well, you will also get flack if you move to Open division, because Open shooters deserve it.
:)
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I won't shoot Open because I don't have the money for depleted unobtanium bullets propelled by dried unicorn tears.
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Brian, I know that you have done a few muti-guns matches.
Did you use the CZ for the handgun portion?, and what was the start procedure?
I would think that multigun and USPSA would be very similar for start procedures.
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Brian, I know that you have done a few muti-guns matches.
Did you use the CZ for the handgun portion?, and what was the start procedure?
I would think that multigun and USPSA would be very similar for start procedures.
In Multigun, everyone is either shooting pistol rules that match Open, or Limited division.
(Note: The rules matches one of those two divisions. They are called something different, but for the most part, unless you shoot Heavy Metal, the pistol section of the rules will match Open or Limited divisions---not Production.)
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Yep, in multigun I started it cocked with safety engaged. I think I might start going with hammer down just to stay consistent between the two disciplines.
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Yep, in multigun I started it cocked with safety engaged. I think I might start going with hammer down just to stay consistent between the two disciplines.
Was there a reason beyond the obvious first shot in SA why you changed up from the decocker version?
I really like SP-01 with the decocker, to the point if I switched guns that is what it would be.
Oh and 2 more reasons production is awesomer.
1. Makes A's really count
2. Chicks dig it.
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Well, the real reason I got rid of the decocker model is because it was the SP01 Phantom, which is the polymer version. I really liked the gun and it was the most accurate pistol I've ever owned, but it wouldn't drop mags free. Apparently that's normal with the Phantoms and there's not much you can do about it. What I would REALLY like is a regular steel framed SP01 Shadow, but they're about impossible to find right now unless you're willing to pay 150% of new price for a used one.
That, and my every day carry gun is a SA/DA 75 Compact, so I like the idea of competing with the same gun I carry (although with a slightly longer grip and barrel). The Compact was originally my wife's, but she had a hard time racking the slide on it. I liked the gun so much I kept it for myself and bought her a Hi Power.
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Well, you will also get flack if you move to Open division, because Open shooters deserve it.
:)
HEY! Some of us can't see as well as YOU CAN! :) We NEED the dot!
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I won't shoot Open because I don't have the money for depleted unobtanium bullets propelled by dried unicorn tears.
I completely understand that! I just spent the last 3 hours sorting brass for those unobtainum bullets! Luckily, I have someone ELSE load them, so I don't have to harvest those unicorn tears myself. ;)
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Ok, time to post up some pistol porn.
Stripped it all down tonight, did some light work on the sear and hammer to clean them up a little, installed a lighter mainspring, extended firing pin, and lightened firing pin spring, detail cleaned it, and stuck on a new set of grips.
The trigger is pretty nice now. It "cams" the hammer just a little in single action and there's a tiny amount of creep, but it's much smoother than from the factory. Double action is WAY lighter. Next up will be some better sights, but for now hopefully it shoots as nice as it looks. It sure is purdy.
(http://i1226.photobucket.com/albums/ee412/alemonkey/IMG_1841_zps9ee07970.jpg)
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Hmmm...production division has a maximum size.
...handgun with empty magazine inserted must fit wholly within a box with internal dimensions of 8 15/16” x 6” x 1 5/8” (toler- ance +1/16”, -0”) (8.938”x6”x1.625”) (227.01mmx152.40mmx41.28mm)
Not sure if your extended magazine will make the gun too big? Though I'm not too familiar with the CZ line. The rule is odd considering the fact that you can only have 10 rounds in each magazine at the start signal for production division.
I'm sure jthhapkido will be along any second to explain. 3...2...1...
Fly
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Hmmm...production division has a maximum size.
Not sure if your extended magazine will make the gun too big? Though I'm not too familiar with the CZ line. The rule is odd considering the fact that you can only have 10 rounds in each magazine at the start signal for production division.
I'm sure jthhapkido will be along any second to explain. 3...2...1...
Did I hear my name? :)
They didn't want people putting weighted extended base pads on their magazines, among other things. Originally in Production you had to use magazines that matched the factory profile for the gun. Which, among other things, meant that while you could shoot a G26 in Production, you couldn't use G19 or G17 magazines in it----however, this has since changed.
Now, you can use aftermarket magazines and basepads AS LONG AS they fit in the USPSA box, which as Fly said, is 8 15/16” x 6” x 1 5/8”.
Looking at the picture, I also think that +2 basepad is going to be too big. The standard basepad for the CZ, if I recall correctly, barely fits. Not positive---but I bet when you measure it, it is going to be too tall.
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I'm not sure, but I believe the +2 on the Mec-Gar is pretty darn close to the same as a factory SP01 mag. Even if it's too big I have plenty of standard 16/17 round mags that will easily fit.
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I'm not sure, but I believe the +2 on the Mec-Gar is pretty darn close to the same as a factory SP01 mag. Even if it's too big I have plenty of standard 16/17 round mags that will easily fit.
Coolie! Just wanted to make sure you didn't have any surprises when you showed up for a match.
Fly
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OK, I think I'm going to hit the nightly IDPA match at Big Shots in Lincoln Tuesday night. Sounds like that's been having a good turnout so there should be plenty of people to embarrass myself in front of.
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OK, I think I'm going to hit the nightly IDPA match at Big Shots in Lincoln Tuesday night. Sounds like that's been having a good turnout so there should be plenty of people to embarrass myself in front of.
That's great! Then on Wednesday, you can come to the USPSA style match.
Fly
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That's great! Then on Wednesday, you can come to the USPSA style match.
Fly
Hmm...I didn't know they had a USPSA one. I'll have to hit that some time too. Twice in one week may get SWMBO a little cranky.
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Hmm...I didn't know they had a USPSA one. I'll have to hit that some time too. Twice in one week may get SWMBO a little cranky.
Yup...the BigShots Practical Pistol League (USPSA style) is EVERY Wednesday. We get around the same number of shooters each week as IDPA. Several people shoot both. Come on out sometime. We would be glad to see you there.
Fly
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Ok, I had fun at the IDPA match last week. Took 7th in SSP, which I was pleased with considering I'm out of practice and this was my first time shooting one handed with a flashlight (it was a "night" shoot scenario).
I'll have to see if I can make the Wednesday match this week, and I'm planning on hitting the match in Louisville on Sunday. I just put a CZ Custom competition hammer (still Production legal since it's a factory part) and a Cajun gun works sear in my new baby, so I'm eager to try it out. I had it all disassembled last weekend and couldn't take it to the meeting in GI. The trigger is NICE now. Still needs a little polishing on some of the contact points like the transfer bar, but I made this face when I first tried it:
(http://i1226.photobucket.com/albums/ee412/alemonkey/George-Takei-oh-my-282x300_zpsfa1cb283.jpg)
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bkoenig,
I found a section of the current USPSA rules that is pertinent to your situation.
USPSA Rulebook, Section 25.13.2.1, titled "Unclassified shooters" states...
"Unclassified shooters with less than 18 sanctioned match participations in the prior 12 months must shoot an unmodified trigger."
From the rulebook definitions section...
"Unmodified trigger: A trigger which has not been improved through polishing, or parts replacements. This does not apply to a modified trigger with substantial foreign material which significantly diminishes the trigger performance. In situations where sufficient foreign material is not present, a metal trigger which has never been lubricated and has significant rust impeding the trigger movement, may be substituted."
Fly
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Well, that sucks. I guess I can put the factory parts back in it for now.
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Well, that sucks. I guess I can put the factory parts back in it for now.
Yeah...I know it sucks. I was really hoping someone else would show up and join the group of shooters that are always beating me, but I guess we will just both have to wait for that. Damn these rules.
Fly
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It's not really too big of a deal, swapping out the hammer and sear takes about 10 minutes on a CZ once you know how to do it. If you remove the strut and disconnector from the hammer it's a little more work because the disconnector pin is so tight it has to be pressed out. Since I have another 75 that is 100% factory I'm just going to swap the whole package between the two guns and call it good.
Now, to find some more classifiers.....
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Hey Fly, do you have a link to that rule book? I wanted to check it out to make sure I have everything else on the up & up but I can't find that section in the current rules posted on the USPSA site. Maybe it's an older rule that was dropped on the last revision?
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Ugh. I spoke too soon.
I was home at lunch and decided to swap out the parts real quick, and apparently I was in too much of a hurry. I was driving out the pins when the punch slipped and left a big gash down the side of the frame. This gun has a Polycoat finish instead of blueing so I can't even touch it up. :angry:
My ham-handedness got the best of me a second time when I was replacing the sear. Like an idiot I decided to switch out just the sear rather than swapping the entire sear cage assembly, so I took it all apart. Inside there is a tiny little spring, about 1/64" diameter wire, that connects to the lifter for the firing pin block. It's under pressure so you have to be really careful when taking it apart. I wasn't careful enough and it went flying across the room somewhere. :angry: :angry:
The gun won't fire without that spring, so it's either cannibalize my 75 Compact or not shoot this weekend. I was so frustrated I just left it in pieces on my workbench and went back to work.
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Here are the rules http://www.uspsa.org/uspsa-rules.php (http://www.uspsa.org/uspsa-rules.php)
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Here are the rules http://www.uspsa.org/uspsa-rules.php (http://www.uspsa.org/uspsa-rules.php)
You won't find that rule in there. It can only be found in the newest rule book that only certain people have access to.
You will just have to trust me.
Fly
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Good thing I didn't actually take my gun apart then....
(http://i1226.photobucket.com/albums/ee412/alemonkey/Troll_Face_zps32e96b9f.png)
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Good thing I didn't actually take my gun apart then....
You didn't take your gun apart, mess it up, and render it useless?! And you ARE going to shoot the match this weekend?
Damn it!
I guess it is a good thing I won't be there this weekend for you to beat me. ;D
Fly
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Good thing I didn't actually take my gun apart then....
(http://i1226.photobucket.com/albums/ee412/alemonkey/Troll_Face_zps32e96b9f.png)
:)
(http://weknowmemes.com/generator/uploads/generated/g133516683595626934.jpg)
I read your post at lunch today on my mobile and you almost had me hook, line and sinker.
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The funny thing is, I actually have lost that #$*! little firing pin block spring twice when fooling around with my guns but each time I found it after crawling around on the floor for 10 minutes.
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I guess it is a good thing I won't be there this weekend for you to beat me. ;D
Fly
We should carpool up there some time to save gas. I promise I won't leave you when we stop for a soda.
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We should carpool up there some time to save gas. I promise I won't leave you when we stop for a soda.
That sounds like a good idea. If you drive, it will save me a LOT of gas.
Fly