Copper Plating

[unfy]

a while ago i picked up a small vice that ya clamp on to the edge of desks / boards / etc.

fiddling with it, looks like it might make for a decent holder thing to  make bullet roughing-up quicker... or at least easier on the fingers.

[unfy]

Small AC motor arrived.

Non-linear physics math stuff is down right confusing.  Using a couple different approaches, this motor is either going to be just barely strong enough to rotate the basket -- or it's going to need a 32:1 pulley system (ie: it's way too weak).

Got a lamp cord plug wired to it here at work, and tried to see if it'd lift 2lbs of weight all by itself, and it had no problem.  I'll have a minimum of a 4:1 (prolly closer to 6:1 or 8:1 or maybe even more!) ratio at home, so I'm not thinking it'll have any problems spinning the basket.  Yay!  Only the moment of truth will know but still, yay!

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cast a bunch of bullets the other night as well.

i have just about everything to attempt some long plating process stuff (including unattended).  i've got a doc's appointment at 7am thursday morning (it's wed night as i write this) -- and i've managed to mess up my days and nights a fair amount lately.... so i dunno if I'm gonna stay up all night plating bullets or if just wait until the weekend.

[unfy]

stopped by menards and dug all around and explored a bit... trying to come up with a wheel / pull system thing for the motor etc.

ended up going with an 8-inch duct cap thing for $5, looks something like:



it's light weight, fairly wide bearing surface, and seemed more than strong enough.  I'll be using a bicycle inner tube as my belt.  don't think i've got rubber cement atm so will just work with staples or something in the mean time.  the motor side will have a 1/2 inch pvc plug drilled out and stuck to it.

this will give me about a 16:1 ratio on the motor to basket.... which should alleviate any concerns about motor strength... and with the motor at 6rpm, this means it'll now rotate the basket one revolution every ~2.5 minutes which sounds ideal to me.

also grabbed some 'value lumber' left over plywood and 2x6 to make a quick and dirty frame to hold the motor in place.

also pimped out NFOA to a gentleman who I was conversing with.  i really should just head to vista print and have some of their free business cards made with nfoa logo stuff on it.  i should prolly dig through the forum to see if Dan or someone has already posted a suggested look / logo / etc.


tonight i look forward to actually constructing all of this and probably also bringin all of the pieces together -- the variable dc power supply, aquarium heater, and basket spinning stuff.  assuming it seems to be doing well for an hour or two, i'll probably kick the kitties out of the room and close the door while it plates over night hehehe.

[unfy]

skipped belt idea for motor -> big wheel. instead decided to cut up an old bicycle inner tube.  wrapped it around duct cap and bolted into place... as well as putting some automotive weather strip adhesive to the loose end to keep it down.  drilled and then xacto knifed out a 1/2 inch pvc plug to fit the [) drive shaft of the motor.  just epoxy'd inner tube piece to the pvc plug.

cemented some pvc pipe together

cut down a small sheet of 1/4th inch plywood, drilled some holes, and zip tied it to the basket jig frame (the square box construct to hold the basket above / in the solution).

motor has two ear pieces with holes for mounting to a surface.  hanging the motor from one of those, while the other side hangs loose.  tying weight to the loose end to provide the pressure against the big wheel (motor is mounted near the big wheel edge area).

i didn't want to pvc cement the big wheel to the basket 'drive shaft' ... yet the basket 'drive shaft' was slipping.  so instead drilled a hole perpindicular to the length of the pipe.  screwed a long bolt through it with a nut so it acts as a T / finger sticking out.  then drilled a hole into the big wheel / duct end cap piece and stuck another long bolt through that.  the wheel / duct cap bolt is parallel to the drive shaft.  it spins around and eventually hits the one sticking out of the pipe (in a perpindicular fashion), spinning the 'drive shaft'.

i'll have to head back to menards tomorrow.

the motor is hanging with the 'ear pieces' being 2 inches from the plywood.  and... well.. the setup in general really likes to cause the motor to cant.  i can permanently attach the motor so it doesn't budge, but since the pvc goes through the basket... i have to be able to easily rip apart everything to put bullets in the basket or get them out.  being able to easily take the tension off of the big wheel / duct cap makes this much easier

a better basket would be cool heh.

the big wheel is also not perfectly attached to the drive shaft because pvc theaded connections only twist to about 1/2 way up the threads.  i'm using some cut up inner tube to act as washers in this situation, but it's far from ideal / sturdy.

if i could get some really big washers to go around the pvc threads... it'd really help a lot... but... i don't have anything with a 5/8" or 3/4" hole right now.  if i can get the wheel / duct cap to mount better to 'drive shaft', it'll help reduce canting as well (since the wheel / cap cants a bit as well right now).


with 100 bullets in the basket, and holding the motor flat so it doesn't cant, it can spin the basket just fine with no assistance from me .

i'll get pictures tomorrow (sunday).

i really have to get the motor mounted properly, and preferably also find better washers (or similar) for the duct cap / big wheel mount.

[unfy]

Lotsa pics.




Above is an overview of the whole setup.  The wood ($2) is zip tied to the frame.  And some mess in my living room where i was building / testing the setup.

For the basket - I cemented the { } shaped things, but left the pvc fittings in between uncemented.  With this basket setup, I need to be able to disassemble the basket.

Lastly, the pvc shaft between the }--- and the motor was cemented into place to keep it from slipping.




Above is looking at the motor / wheel stuff.

The duct / stove cap is 8 inches ($5-$6), wrapped in a tire inner tube (free or cheap).  The center was drilled out to accommodate the pvc 'drive shaft' (3/4 inch hole).  Some 3/4 inch washers (10 for $1.20) were used to help keep the cap from canting.

I drilled two holes in the side of the duct cap to give a perm anchor for the inner tube.  Bolted tube in place and moderately stretched it around the circumference.  Then took out one bolt, affixed inner tube end piece by reattaching it, then did the second bolt.  For the left over flap, the 3m automotive black weather stripping adhesive was used ($6).  it's possible the weather stripping alone would have worked, stuff is cool.. but... i like the positive attachment the bolts provide.

In the pic, covered up by the pvc threaded end piece, is the key / catch bolt to provide a solid driving force to the drive shaft (in case the pvc slips).

The motor is hanging on the left from one of it's ears holes.  At he bottom of it is some failed plating bullets to provide the pressure against the big wheel.  Motor has a 1/2 inch end plug covered in inner tube providing a friction gear with the big wheel.




Above is a close up of the motor mounting stuff.  Quite sloppy, I know.

the far bolt acts as the swivel point for the motor.  the nuts keep that side from canting away from the plywood.  i can't fit a nut between the motor and bolt, so i can't secure it a specific place along the shaft, sadly

the near bolt has a few washers at a specificl place along the bolt.  the washers act as a restraining plate to keep the motor from canting too much.  not perfect but it seems to work well.

In the background, you can see the bolt sticking out of the drive shaft for positive torque transfer if the wheel slips on the pvc.




Above is the bolts holding the rubber to the duct cap / wheel.

In the background you can see the bolt coming out of the drive shaft again.  Perpindicular to it, coming out of the flat part of the duct cap you can also see the torque transfer bolt mentioned earlier.  if the pvc coupling slips between the duct cap and the drive shaft, those two bolts will catch each other.




Another look at the small ac motor.  Drilled out the 1/2 inch pvc plug to attach to and give a bearing surface for the motor.  The inner tube fit nicely on it, but was slipping, so I epoxied it to the pvc.

You can also see the twist tie holding the pressure-providing weight .

there are washers on both sides of the duct cap ... and 2 along the visible side you see here.  i couldn't thread them on any further, and it seems to be quite snug as is.  if i need to, i can add more washers down the line.


it's currently spinning bullets dry (just to see how it cooperates for longer durations).  gonna work on getting aquarium heater into the solution and stuff right now to get it warmed up, and and and....!!!

[unfy]

Plating in progress with all of the new pieces.

Aquarium heater heating the solution to 80-90f.

Motor spinning basket.

Power supply spitting out ~1.7v. 

100 bullets that took 80 min to rough up are plating \o/.

its 1 rev every 90 seconds or so.  outside diameter of pipe and rubber and all.  a little faster than i'd like but owell.


and i'm glad i'm paying attention to it for a few hours before going to sleep.  motor spins the wheel counterclockwise, it just fell off it's threaded connection heh.  retightened everything and will see if it happens again.  dunno if i can easily mount it to make it go clockwise hehe.

i've pen marked things to see if it tries to unscrew itself again... might have just been due to me buggering with stuff (causing it to spin before hitting the cross-torque bolts).

i'll also be fiddling with the voltage a bit to see if i can get something higher that doesn't mess up etc.


edit: it seems to be doing fine now.  and the wheel hasn't tried to unscrew itself either.

i will note that due to being rectangular, the bullets seem to spend a fair amount of their time outside of the solution.......

i spent like 2 hours wandering around walmart as well... trying to find some kind of container that was 9.5-10" in circumference and round.  utter failure.  the 3 or 5 gallon water heat jugs come close... but i didn't wanna spend the $8-$12 on what prolly wouldn't work out right when trying to cut it down heh.

paint cans, coffee, cans, nothing was right.  a $5 salad spinner comes real close.

i'll have to keep looking... there's bound to be something. i basically want something i can take 1/3rd of it off or maybe even a large window into it i can remove.  even if i have to cut zip ties every time, that'd be fine.  ie: quicker bullet removal / insertion into the basket.

also - upped the voltage to 2.25 volts, seems fine and draws ~1.0-1.5 amps. this particular regulator (lt1084) does produce a fair amount of heat.... so... yeah.


re-edit, 2.25 might have been producing some burnage, dropped it back down to 1.75v

[NE Bull]

Unfy, I believe I will bequeathe to you my Golden Hatchet Award
( I was awarded it when I proceeded to weld up the ground off teeth in my pick-up's 4speed transmission. Hey, I was flat broke and desparate, and it worked, for a while)
After following this topic and looking over the last set of pictures, I think you are are more deserving.
Don't get me wrong, I LOVE a good adventure in " Hey, I could build that! "

[unfy]

NE Bull:

LOL. And while tinkering / red-neck-ery is in the family... I tend to avoid it personally heh.  Also.... I don't think I deserve it just yet... (and the welding of gear teeth is much more interesting IMHO).

Motor setup generally worked throughout the night.  I did wake up once and noticed I didn't hear of the bullets falling around... went over and took a look....

The PVC plug on the motor had fallen off, and the rubber that was epodied to it was somehow inside out while still sitting there on the motor shaft.  Really weird.  Quickly re-assembled it (sans epoxy) and it was fine when I left the house to come to work (so still spinning).


Anyhoo, looking at the basket before coming to work, the bullets weren't shiny copper colored but rather that dingy coppery grey/brown.  Some of the wire along the basket also looked a bit 'burnt'.  So without actually taking anything apart to inspect the bullets - I'd have to say this was another failure

Power supply was still kicking out 1.7v, when the motor pvc plug had fallen off earlier, the basket was still submerged (and the bullets looked better too).

Soooooooo....

I have some kind of critical flaw going on.

Thoughts thus far:

a) my anode copper pipe hammered flat may not have enough surface area... meaning i'll need to pick up that $30 roll of copper roof flashing.  have seen copper sheets as well, but they also run $30 and you get less material that's also harder to work with.

b) bullets getting lifted out of the solution by the spinning basket is evil maybe ?  i have no ideas on how to completely submerge a spinning basket idea at the moment.  also -- i wonder if a round basket would help or not (if they'd keep tumbling at the bottom or still lift up halfway.  currently, when the basket is as deep as it can get, it's only a few inches in the solution.

c) as shown in the pictures, the basket is... well.. two baskets sandwiched together.  the copper wire is "sewn" along the holes in the basket.  This means that the copper wire is closer to the anode copper source than the bullets.  I wonder if this can be causing a problem (the wire on the basket tends to look pretty good compared the bullets).

d) i've seen bullets occasionally get stuck in the holes of the basket.  the little bit of lead exposed through the hole tends to plate decently.  closer to the anode ? more solution movement ?

e) would a basket where the wires spread out in a star pattern from the 3d spacial center to the edge of the basket do better ?  kinda looking like a big brush in the middle.  this way instead of spinning around the circumference, there's 8 or more wires going to each flat surface of the current basket.  would this encourage the lead to get more of the copper ?

f) what about using plastic window screen to construct a basket ?

g) i'm so very highly discouraged that this last endeavor didn't work perfectly

[unfy]

random other thought to skip the basket.

take a sheet of plexi.

half way drill out 0.40 inch holes (or whatever). throughout it, so it looks like a reloading block.  prolly only need to be ~1/4 inch deep.

place the bullets, nose down into it these cavities.

another plate sits on top of this, with wire somehow sticking down so that it touches the base of each bullet.

this.... shouldn't be too hard to construct and should provide sure electrical connections to each bullet..  the nose of the bullet is unimportant for shooting (other than maybe the copper plate is more sturdy if completely incasing the round ?).  you would, however, end up with a dot or something of unplated lead at the base of every bullet.  since the base is the second most important part (other than the walls)... this... seems like a bad idea ?

it also wouldn't be too difficult to spin this contraption within the liquid ... like a washing machine. 


i dunno, just so disheartened at most recent fail heh.

[unfy]

While at work, the rubber came off the motor pvc plug again... sigh.

The bullets themselves are above.  Sigh.  Just comes off with a brush or similar and isn't that thick.




My copper anode pipe has been eaten up hehehe.  So yeah, I'll definitely have to get the copper flashing.


It'll be at least a week before I attempt anything again, just not in the mood now and have other things to attend to (ie: a kitty who is peeing pink )

[unfy]

It'll be a week or two before I get back into this project.  Gotta wait till payday to get some more supplies (copper flashing primarily).

In the mean time... I have some questions!

Bullet prep time is insidiously long.  Wire brushing or steel wool'ing 100 rounds is just not fun by any stretch of the imagination, and it takes forever.  I've tried holding them in a vice... and that's nothing but failure.  A grinder + wire brush wheel seems ... dangerous.  I did pick up some dremel attachments... but... that doesn't really seem like it'd be much better.

Any ideas on how to more easily rough a bullet up physically ?


Does anyone have any experience working with moderately strong acids ? 

Hydrochloric 30-some% is easy to get a hold of at hardware stores (near the acetone / spirits)... and sulfuric acid isn't too hard to find either (typically in plumbing in a black bottle in a bag). 

The idea is to do a chemical etch instead of the physical prep.  Since I'm coming from a bullet mold, everything should be nice and clean to begin with.  I'm not sure if the physical roughness (groves etc) helps the plating or not (akin to roughing up a surface before gluing it) ??

I assume I'd want to plastic containers with lids... and something to act as a strainer.  The idea being to place bullets + acid in one container, agitate it a bit from time to time... and eventually drain all of the liquid into the second container (with something to hold the bullets back like the strainer or lid).  Then get the bullets into some distilled water for a rinse then into the plating solution.


lastly... any *simple* ideas for getting my basket completely submerged, or a different idea ?

i've fiddled with the idea of a cork screw style thing so that the motor is above the solution spinning the cork screw (ala washing machine)... but that doesn't seem like it'd really be all that great in practice.

although... one has to wonder.... what would a popcorn popper like thing work ?



something like that ?

i'm not entirely sure if the physical tumbling or movement of the bullets is causing problems or not, too......

[unfy]

next attempt will require the copper roof flashing stuff -- i don't doubt i have an anode surface area problem.

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popcorn popper idea prolly wouldn't work out too well.... assuming the fingers / rods are the electrical contact.... i can see uneven plating from bullet to bullet being all too possible.

a thought that prolly won't go anywhere -- take a bit of coiled steel / spring steel / wire stuff that typically makes up a plumbers snake.... and spin that within a pvc jacket (plumber snake is cheap, too heh).  this way it's easy to redirection the motor drive down to a basket that's completely submerged in liquid ?  i can see many hurdles to overcome with this idea... but... just throwing it out there.  not only is there how to actually connect things, but also how to get the electrical wire to the basket.  one advantage is it might be easy to remove the basket from the liquid and a smaller basket size ? 

i primarily need a larger diameter basket at the moment so that the bullets actually get submerged (with rotational axis center being above the liquid currently)

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i dunno, something along the popcorn popper idea still seems like it'd be the easiest.  well... something that flips the basket rotation 90 degrees that is (so that it's more like a traditional washing machine).  just not sure how to get proper tumbling / electrical contact yet.

[Ghost]

I've been following your bullet plating experiments with interest.  My wife has one of these:

http://www.bedbathandbeyond.com/product.asp?SKU=14803572&RN=939&

It looks like you could drive the inner basket from the top pretty easily.  It's not the cheapest, but it might work a little better than a POPCORN POPPER!    Just kidding.  Good luck.....you're getting a little closer all the time.

Ghost

 

[unfy]

Ghost:

Yup, salad spinners are interesting indeed.  Over the weekend, when I was looking for just a generic round "basket" or tub to make a new basket.... I was seriously eyeballing the $6 walmart salad spinner.  It was pretty close in most of the dimensions (don't think it had quite the diameter I was looking for though, maybe...).... but opted to just try what I had instead.

Coincidentally, the cheap walmart spinner was perfectly cylindrical shaped - it didn't taper toward the bottom.  I also don't think it was quite as tall as the BB&B spinner (due to my current pvc construct, i've got a height limit of about 6 or 7 inches i think).

If ya take the salad spinners, and mount them on their side for use in my current basket setup.... I don't doubt that salad spinners (possibly without the outer shell, or with the outer shell mostly cut away) would make fine replacements for the atrocity i have now hehe.

Without changing their orientation (ie: just using it orientated like it is the pic in the link, and spinning it like it would under normal operation) ... i don't think there would be any tumbling effect for the bullets at all ?  I think for salad spinners to tumble, they require variable / differing speeds to be applied so that the centripetal force and gravity causes things to jumble.  Doesn't quite work out so well given the constant drive motor (let alone that it's a slow motor).


Popcorn popper -- heh, i know you were jesting, but the concept of how it tumbles the kernels was what I was pointing at, not the actual device .  Although - if i could put some bullets in a popcorn popper and get popcorn out... that'd be awesome.  A switch to turn on the spinner for plating, and a separate switch for the heat ?  ... ok, i really am a zombie / way too exhausted today.


I also wonder if a "bag" made out of plastic window screen.... which you then place on top of of something shaped like:

/\/\/\/\

or maybe just a cross shaped bar (an inch deep or so tall).  Ya hang the bag on top of it so that there's a few inches or so of 'play' / 'sag' resting on top of the bumpy surface ... and then spin the cross bar or the bag.  the idea being that the bullets will be forced to tumble due to the bumpy surface, and the bag keeps it contained.

if the bag is wrapped around rigid box with just a very saggy bottom... that'd prolly do fine.... with the rigid box frame of the bag being able to keep it from twisting in a knot like a sandwich baggy.

of course then the question is how to get electricity to the bullets.  would a simple cross shaped wire near the bottom of the rigid frame work (assuming you have enough bullets to cover the wire even when sagging) ?

this device is horrible to try to explain in words, and prolly sucks to try to draw.  i might try to make a construct of it later using legos and a plastic bag or something ... and take pics.


still also fiddling with an impeller / cork screw / something design.  i just can't see it working

also, forgot who at the moment, mentioned the vibrating stuff.  been trying to ponder how hard it'd be to mount an upside down vibrating brass tumbler/cleaner into the solution.  the hornady tumbler comes with a strainer lid as well .  it's an intriguing idea although i dunno how well they vibrate when inverted (nor how much vibration is needed) ... and... still debating on getting electricity to the bullets hehe.

[unfy]

Picked up the copper flashing.  6 inches by 10 feet for $35.  Oy.

Also grabbed a couple 5 gallon buckets while i was there to possibly look into using them for replacement basket.  If their diameter is too big... well... always handy to have spare 5 gallon buckets anyway heh.

Lastly, grabbed some non-metallic window screen for $6. 

I'll start eyeballing stuff and deciding what to do next.


cut off a 5 gallon bucket, then cut the very bottom off of the other.  drilled holes, etc. 

prolly gonna wrap wire around the inside of it for first attempt.  need to strip 16 feet of wire :/

[unfy]

constructing the next 'basket'.

i'll zip tie / copper twist tie the other bottom to the one...

along with the pvc holes present, i'll also be drilling more holes or cutting out more stuff along those walls so solution can circulate etc.

[unfy]

Been sick... using a dremel and such when not feeling well ... makes for ugly results.  owell... functionality over aesthetics

anyhoo, basket is... at a point where i'm a bit confused on how to do something



i've also got the bottom of another 5 gallon bucket cut off to complete the basket, similar cross shape pattern.

fiddling with some sections of the vinyl/fiberglass window screen... i'm... not coming up with a great way to attach it just yet (so bullets dont fall out).

after i get that figured out, i can do another test plate with new anode sheet and new basket and stuff


actually, if i use that thicker copper wire or something to make the pie-shape outlines... and wrap the screen around the wire frame... and then zip tie the wire frame (with screen) to the bucket..... that... might work

[unfy]

screen idea didn't work out too well....

tried also cutting up some water jugs to make inserts.... first attempt failed (too flimsy)... will be trying again shortly (or with something else).

must attempt plating tonight!

[bkoenig]

Man, and I thought I was a hardcore tinkerer.  You're taking this to a whole other level.  Keep up the good work.

[Dan W]

<------------------ that is a scary avatar dude