9mm

[farmerbob]

http://patriotoutdoornews.com/11558/case-closed-fbi-says-9mm-best-pistol-round#sthash.QZPZEdNs.dpuf

At least we won't have to have this discussion again.

[FarmerRick]

If 9x19 is so good, wouldn't 9x21 or 9x23 be even better?


 

[Randy]

Of note: “There is little to no noticeable difference in the wound tracks between premium line law Auto enforcement projectiles from 9mm Luger through the .45 Auto.” - See more at: http://patriotoutdoornews.com/11558/case-closed-fbi-says-9mm-best-pistol-round#sthash.QZPZEdNs.5yL2YWnk.dpuf
Read more at http://patriotoutdoornews.com/11558/case-closed-fbi-says-9mm-best-pistol-round#Ys8rZzLhX6RU1ug0.99

[Gumby]

FarmerRick - I like your 9×21mm Gyurza idea for body armor ventilation.

Compare JPH 147gr 9mm vs. the JPH 230gr 45 below.  See:  http://www.ar15.com/ammo/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/index.htm#PISTOL AMMUNITION



I train/favor a 3-burst effort to center of mass for close encounters, and a heavy old Ruger P89 9mm works best for me in that regard.  Some folks do good things with 22LR rounds.  Perhaps we'll give Ernest Hemingway the last word or two (from Hemingway on Hunting):

“Now standing in one corner of a boxing ring with a .22 caliber Colt automatic pistol, shooting a bullet weighing only 40 grains and with a striking energy of 51 foot pounds at 25 feet from the muzzle, I will guarantee to kill either Gene Tunney or Joe Louis before they get to me from the opposite corner. This is the smallest caliber pistol cartridge made; but it is also one of the most accurate and easy to hit with, since the pistol has no recoil. I have killed many horses with it, cripples and bear baits, with a single shot, and what will kill a horse will kill a man."

So the 22LR is ideal for all situations? Not quite, says EH:

"Yet this same pistol bullet fired at point blank range will not dent a grizzly’s skull, and to shoot a grizzly with a .22 caliber pistol would simply be one way of committing suicide.”

One man prepares for ponies, another for Griz... 

[GreyGeek]

"Yet this same pistol bullet fired at point blank range will not dent a grizzly’s skull, and to shoot a grizzly with a .22 caliber pistol would simply be one way of committing suicide.”

Not if you hit the griz in the eye or back of the mouth when he opened it to bite you.   

[AWick]

Why is penetration depth the "go to" standard for lethality? If each of these rounds are designed to hit that approx 14-16" depth then the next thing to analyze is the energy dissipated and subsequent wound channel. That picture shows some nasty amplitude in both of the 40S&Ws, the 45 ACP, and of course that 357Sig! It is simply physics.

In slow motion, the ballistic gels distribute the energy in waves. In the classical wave theory, energy of a wave doesn't depend on the frequency and wavelength of the wave (i.e. the penetration depth and other factors), only the total area under the amplitude curve (if the wavelength is the same, then it comes down to amplitude. A wave's energy is directly proportional to its amplitude squared. This is where the amplitude of those larger calibers, and the 357Sig come into play.

[OnTheFly]

Why is penetration depth the "go to" standard for lethality? If each of these rounds are designed to hit that approx 14-16" depth then the next thing to analyze is the energy dissipated and subsequent wound channel. That picture shows some nasty amplitude in both of the 40S&Ws, the 45 ACP, and of course that 357Sig! It is simply physics.

In slow motion, the ballistic gels distribute the energy in waves. In the classical wave theory, energy of a wave doesn't depend on the frequency and wavelength of the wave (i.e. the penetration depth and other factors), only the total area under the amplitude curve (if the wavelength is the same, then it comes down to amplitude. A wave's energy is directly proportional to its amplitude squared. This is where the amplitude of those larger calibers, and the 357Sig come into play.

I am too tired (and possibly not bright enough) to understand everything you just wrote.  However, I think I get the gist of what you are saying.  My only comment would be that, to take it to an extreme as extremes tend to emphasize what is really happening, if the bullet never penetrated or barely penetrated, how much do the waves matter?  The more the bullet penetrates without passing straight through, the more that energy is dissipated into the gel/body.

Or did I completely not understand?

Fly

[AWick]

I am too tired (and possibly not bright enough) to understand everything you just wrote.  However, I think I get the gist of what you are saying.  My only comment would be that, to take it to an extreme as extremes tend to emphasize what is really happening, if the bullet never penetrated or barely penetrated, how much do the waves matter?  The more the bullet penetrates without passing straight through, the more that energy is dissipated into the gel/body.

Or did I completely not understand?

Fly

I think you're following as best as can be expected with my out of the blue physics ramblings!

The amplitude of the red areas in the picture above represent the affected tissue as it expanded, tore apart, and collapsed back together, creating a neat and measurable amplitude curve. This is where they probably came up with the product name for Hydra-Shok, given that our bodies are 70%ish water.

While it is certainly true that kinetic energy E=(mass*velocity^2)/2, giving faster rounds a squared factor more than bullet weight, it is also true the extra powder makes up for this and we all have seen the ballistics charts. 22lr is around 100 ft-lbs, 380 auto is around 200 ft-lbs, 9mm is around 385 ft-lbs, 40S&W is around 485, 45 ACP is around 411 ft-lbs, and  357Sig is around 600 ft-lbs.

What this all means is that if each of those calibers is taking 16" to stop then the energy actually delivered to the target is still 3X as much for a 357Sig than a 380 auto. That energy dissipation directly relates to the amount of tissue that experiences extreme trama and the severity of said trama...

Of course, any vital organ or nervous system hit is going to have similar results nearly regardless of what caliber is in play.

Maybe I'll have to buy that 357Sig barrel for my 40S&Ws M&P40c after all!

[OnTheFly]

I think you're following as best as can be expected with my out of the blue physics ramblings!

The amplitude of the red areas in the picture above represent the affected tissue as it expanded, tore apart, and collapsed back together, creating a neat and measurable amplitude curve. This is where they probably came up with the product name for Hydra-Shok, given that our bodies are 70%ish water.

While it is certainly true that kinetic energy E=(mass*velocity^2)/2, giving faster rounds a squared factor more than bullet weight, it is also true the extra powder makes up for this and we all have seen the ballistics charts. 22lr is around 100 ft-lbs, 380 auto is around 200 ft-lbs, 9mm is around 385 ft-lbs, 40S&W is around 485, 45 ACP is around 411 ft-lbs, and  357Sig is around 600 ft-lbs.

What this all means is that if each of those calibers is taking 16" to stop then the energy actually delivered to the target is still 3X as much for a 357Sig than a 380 auto. That energy dissipation directly relates to the amount of tissue that experiences extreme trama and the severity of said trama...

Of course, any vital organ or nervous system hit is going to have similar results nearly regardless of what caliber is in play.

Maybe I'll have to buy that 357Sig barrel for my 40S&Ws M&P40c after all!

I think I understand better now.  You were not saying penetration does not matter, just that equivalent penetration for different calibers means a larger wound channel for a larger caliber. 

Fly

[shooter]

I think you're following as best as can be expected with my out of the blue physics ramblings!

The amplitude of the red areas in the picture above represent the affected tissue as it expanded, tore apart, and collapsed back together, creating a neat and measurable amplitude curve. This is where they probably came up with the product name for Hydra-Shok, given that our bodies are 70%ish water.

While it is certainly true that kinetic energy E=(mass*velocity^2)/2, giving faster rounds a squared factor more than bullet weight, it is also true the extra powder makes up for this and we all have seen the ballistics charts. 22lr is around 100 ft-lbs, 380 auto is around 200 ft-lbs, 9mm is around 385 ft-lbs, 40S&W is around 485, 45 ACP is around 411 ft-lbs, and  357Sig is around 600 ft-lbs.

What this all means is that if each of those calibers is taking 16" to stop then the energy actually delivered to the target is still 3X as much for a 357Sig than a 380 auto. That energy dissipation directly relates to the amount of tissue that experiences extreme trama and the severity of said trama...

Of course, any vital organ or nervous system hit is going to have similar results nearly regardless of what caliber is in play.

Maybe I'll have to buy that 357Sig barrel for my 40S&Ws M&P40c after all!

   your making my head hurt, just say bigger bullets=bigger hole

[SemperFiGuy]

Maybe I'll have to buy that .357Sig barrel for my 40S&Ws M&P40c after all!

Aha!   Another convert on the brink! 

Hard to go wrong with that move.

just say bigger bullets=bigger hole

Actually, it's the Energy Paradox:  Faster Bullets = Quicker Stop  (of the Threat, that is.)

sfg

[AWick]

Based on the picture I would rate them 357Sig, 45 ACP, 40S&W, 9mm in 124 gr, then everything else.

Aha!   Another convert on the brink! 

Hard to go wrong with that move.
 

I figured I'd bring SFG out of the woodwork with that statement!

[Gary]

I had not thought of EH as a handgun cartridge expert.   His father killed himself with a gunshot to the head with a civil war revolver and Earnest used both barrels of a double barrel shotgun.   

[SemperFiGuy]

I figured I'd bring SFG out of the woodwork with that statement!

Yeah, that sfg guy is always lurking.

He's ubiquitous.

And somewhere between a nag and a bore on the .357SIG.

sfg

[Mntnman]

I have no lack of confidence in 9 mm. Maybe it's because i am comfortable with the stature of all my body parts. 

[GreyGeek]

I am too tired (and possibly not bright enough) to understand everything you just wrote.  However, I think I get the gist of what you are saying.  My only comment would be that, to take it to an extreme as extremes tend to emphasize what is really happening, if the bullet never penetrated or barely penetrated, how much do the waves matter?  The more the bullet penetrates without passing straight through, the more that energy is dissipated into the gel/body.

Or did I completely not understand?

Fly

AWick's physics is spot on.

The speed of the bullet makes all the difference as to why a handgun round makes holes out of which the target bleeds to death, and a rifle bullet blows large holes in the target, created by shock waves which transverse the entire body cavity regardless of where the bullet strikes.  Thus, an HV rifle round hit in the shoulder or pelvis is as lethal as a hit in the center of mass because the shock wave from extremity hits does lethal damage to the center of mass.

Adding more energy to a bullet only increases the amplitude of the transverse pulse wave, not the frequency or the speed of the pulse wave.   For a given force, the more elastic the medium (a body vs a block of wood) the less resistance to the force, which allows a greater amplitude to the pulse wave.   The energy of the pulse wave being proportional to the square of the amplitude,  a quadrupling of the amplitude of a wave is indicative of a 16-fold increase in the amount of energy.

Because the pulse wave is transverse (perpendicular) to the path of the bullet, and the more energy the bullet delivers to the body the greater the amplitude of the pulse wave, the impact of the bullet will never "blow someone off their feet", or move them horizontally  backwards, like blowing them out of a window, as many  Hollywood movies show.   The conservation of momentum explains why.   Being conserved, the momentum before impact and the momentum after impact of the bullet are the same, or afterwards less, any losses due to conversion into heat.
So, 300m/s * 0.008Kg + 100Kg*0m/s = 100.008Kg* Xm/s.   Solve for x, the "backward" velocity of the target.

Since even 9mm or .40 caliber handguns bullets are not powerful enough to deliver pulse wave energies even close to those of a rifle bullet, shot placement is all important.   Unless hit in the brain, spine or heart the target will not be immediately stopped and may not quickly die or die at all.  Ergo, the more holes in the target the more likely a shot will hit a vital organ or, the target will loose blood quickly enough to lapse into unconscionableness.

Otherwise, carry a rifle hidden in your pant leg and pretend to be Chester.

[Ghost]

...the target will loose blood quickly enough to lapse into unconscionableness.

Unconscionableness?   

[JTH]

One of the issues with this way of thinking  of pistol caliber bullet weight/size and pistol caliber velocities is that pistol calibers and rifle calibers are significantly different in terms of velocity, and therefore the elastic stretching that occurs in pistol calibers is significantly different than in rifle calibers.

Simple way of saying it:  In general, pistol calibers simply aren't going fast enough for the temporary cavity to actually damage anything.  Rifle calibers ARE, and the temporary cavity is sufficient to actually damage tissue.  (SFG already said this in a clear fashion.)

There are a number of good research reports out there about wound ballistics, but most of them sum up to:

--with modern JHP ammunition, with respect to efficacy in terms of stopping bad guys other than barrier penetration, there is no significant different in pistol calibers from 9mm up through .45.  (And yes, that includes .357sig and 10mm.)

--there is a world of difference between pistol calibers and rifle calibers in terms of wound ballistics damage, unless you are talking about incredibly small rifle bullets moving fairly slowly for rifles compared to .38Super major loads (moving quickly for pistols).

--Temporary cavities look really cool in slow motion in ballistics gel.  However, in human tissue, pistol temp cavities don't "stretch" tissue enough for damage.

--the concepts of "energy dumping," damage-as-a- function-of kinetic-energy, and momentum calculations all seem to have fairly little to do with reality, according to the research. 

This, unfortunately, is incorrect: 

That energy dissipation directly relates to the amount of tissue that experiences extreme trama and the severity of said trama...

Nope.  Wish it was, because wound ballistics would be a lot more simple, and the caliber wars would be over. 

--for pistol calibers, physiological stops are functions of accuracy.  Psychological stops aren't functions of calibers.

--for rifles, things are different.

And just because, a video of a slug into ballistics gel in slow motion, because we know that slugs are just the end-all, be-all of self-defense:

[GreyGeek]

Unconscionableness?   

Ya.  I argued with my keyboard but it wouldn't listen! 

[sjwsti]

One of the issues with this way of thinking  of pistol caliber bullet weight/size and pistol caliber velocities is that pistol calibers and rifle calibers are significantly different in terms of velocity, and therefore the elastic stretching that occurs in pistol calibers is significantly different than in rifle calibers.

Simple way of saying it:  In general, pistol calibers simply aren't going fast enough for the temporary cavity to actually damage anything.  Rifle calibers ARE, and the temporary cavity is sufficient to actually damage tissue.  (SFG already said this in a clear fashion.)

There are a number of good research reports out there about wound ballistics, but most of them sum up to:

--with modern JHP ammunition, with respect to efficacy in terms of stopping bad guys other than barrier penetration, there is no significant different in pistol calibers from 9mm up through .45.  (And yes, that includes .357sig and 10mm.)

--there is a world of difference between pistol calibers and rifle calibers in terms of wound ballistics damage, unless you are talking about incredibly small rifle bullets moving fairly slowly for rifles compared to .38Super major loads (moving quickly for pistols).

--Temporary cavities look really cool in slow motion in ballistics gel.  However, in human tissue, pistol temp cavities don't "stretch" tissue enough for damage.

--the concepts of "energy dumping," damage-as-a- function-of kinetic-energy, and momentum calculations all seem to have fairly little to do with reality, according to the research. 

This, unfortunately, is incorrect: 
Nope.  Wish it was, because wound ballistics would be a lot more simple, and the caliber wars would be over. 

--for pistol calibers, physiological stops are functions of accuracy.  Psychological stops aren't functions of calibers.

--for rifles, things are different.

And just because, a video of a slug into ballistics gel in slow motion, because we know that slugs are just the end-all, be-all of self-defense:

^This^

Thanks JT, you just saved me some time today.

Can anyone tell me exactly what part of a human ballistic gel is supposed to represent? Does it simulate a solid organ like the liver? Or a hollow organ like the stomach? Maybe lung tissue? Maybe the bladder (empty or full)? You cant ignore the widely varying organ characteristics that exist inside real human beings and how that effects energy transfer.

Kinetic energy + target tissue characteristics = wounding potential.

- Shawn