Beretta is Out; SigSauer is In: New Military Sidearm

[SemperFiGuy]

And.............Glock is Left Standing Out in the Rain:

http://www.foxnews.com/tech/2017/01/20/army-picks-sig-sauers-p320-handgun-to-replace-m9-service-pistol.html


sfg

[Chris Z]

I don't have any experience with the Sig P320, but have heard good things about it.....

I will say it is long overdue to get rid of that crappy Beretta 92.

[Les]

Sounds like Glock is going to protest (As if it'll do any good) 

[SemperFiGuy]

I will say it is long overdue to get rid of that crappy Beretta 92

Yes..........Such a Clunker!!!

But then, the US Military has often sent its troops off to fight wars with junky weapons.

Some few cases in point:

>Most USAAF fighter planes at the start of WWII.
>M1A1 "Bazooka", especially during Korea against T34 tanks.
>M16 rifle in Vietnam.

Let's not even mention winter weather garb and gear.

In spite of all that, we usually win.

FWIW,

sfg

[shooter]

Yes..........Such a Clunker!!!

But then, the US Military has often sent its troops off to fight wars with junky weapons.

Some few cases in point:

>Most USAAF fighter planes at the start of WWII.
>M1A1 "Bazooka", especially during Korea against T34 tanks.
>M16 rifle in Vietnam.

Let's not even mention winter weather garb and gear.

In spite of all that, we usually win.

FWIW,

sfg

      ‘Improvise, Adapt and Overcome!

[SemperFiGuy]

      ‘Improvise, Adapt and Overcome!

Yup.

That's why we usually* win our wars.

sfg
*Actually, I think we've won them all, but some folks (mostly media and supposedly elite types) sometimes claim otherwise.

[Ivars]

Serious questions.  How much use do sidearms see in the military?  Don't special ops guys already have better pistols?  What are the problems with the 92? 

I've never owned one but have shot a couple.  Wasn't compelled to buy one but wasn't disappointed either.

[SemperFiGuy]

What are the problems with the 92??

Appears the USAF and USArmy wanted something "fresher" than the M9.

Here's a synopsis of the requirements:

==========================
Requirements

The U.S. Army initially required the MHS to be more effective, accurate, and reliable than the M9 pistol. The MHS requirement called for a non-caliber specific weapon with modular features to allow for the adaption of different fire control devices, pistol grips, and alternate magazine options. The weapon will fit various hand sizes and will mount targeting enablers using Picatinny rails. The new weapon will incorporate detection avoidance by having a non-reflective neutral color and will be operable with a suppressor in place.[7]

In January 2013, the Army released a Request for Information (RFI) to assess available handgun technologies and U.S. small arms industrial production capacity for the Modular Handgun System. The announcement seeks information “on potential improvements in handgun performance in the areas of accuracy and dispersion out to 50 meters, terminal performance, modularity, reliability, and durability in all environments.” The handgun should have a 90 percent or more chance of hitting in a 4-inch circle out to 50 meters consistently throughout the weapon's lifetime. Ergonomic design should minimize recoil energies and control shot dispersion. Features include, but are not limited to, compatibility with accessory items to include tactical lights, lasers, and sound suppressors. Full ambidextrous controls are required and there is interest in ergonomic designs that can be controlled by female shooters.

There is no specific caliber, but terminal ballistics at 50 meters through 14 inches of ballistics gel will assess lethality compared to M882 9mm FMJ rounds. Specific interest is given to pistols that can accommodate higher chamber pressures over 20 percent greater than SAAMI specification for the cartridge without degradation of reliability. The RFI calls for 2,000 mean rounds between stoppages, 10,000 mean rounds between failures, and a 35,000 round service life. Manufacturers are asked to provide production capacity estimates on minimum and maximum monthly rates, as well as the lead times to achieve those rates. Estimated pricing is requested for quantities of 250,000 to 550,000 handguns.
====================================

There was some discussion in other locations about caliber interchangeability, but that factor does not seem to be in play in the above posting.

And the point above about "....accuracy out to 50 meters........" is a hoot.

FWIW,

sfg

[shooter]

 with Trump in.. do you think there will be a lot of Beretta magazines and pistols for sale surplus?

[SemperFiGuy]

with Trump in.. do you think there will be a lot of Beretta magazines and pistols for sale surplus?

Wuz wondrin' that myself.

And really don't know.

I like just about anything that shoots, but don't just exactly where an M9/92 would fit in my own measly arsenal, collection, whatever.  Too big, bulky, and heavy for an EDC gun, IMHO.   But if they were cheap enough, I'd probably buy one just for the heckuvit.

Bought an M9 for my eldest son as a present when he was first commissioned in the USAF.   He did the sensible thing and sold it when his pack of rowdy boys got old enough to poke around in closets and figger out locks.

So---I really dunno what will go on the surplus market.   Moreso, I like those police trade-ins that Buds Gun Shop pops up with now and then.

sfg

[shooter]

 could probably throw in the M1 garands, carbines, and 1911 that are waiting to,

[Chris Z]

Serious questions.  How much use do sidearms see in the military?  Don't special ops guys already have better pistols?  What are the problems with the 92? 

I've never owned one but have shot a couple.  Wasn't compelled to buy one but wasn't disappointed either.

I have no Military Experience myself, but my two oldest boys do so I can share their experiences in the Military over the last 5/6 years.

My oldest son was in the Navy, and trained with the M-9. He carried it over in Afghanistan, but never once used it. And actually he said not everyone was issued one over there.

My middle son went thru Army Basic about a year and a half ago, never even touched an M-9 in basic training (Or after). He is assigned to a SF Group, and they have access to many different handguns of their choice from what I understand

[Chris Z]

Wuz wondrin' that myself.

And really don't know.

I like just about anything that shoots, but don't just exactly where an M9/92 would fit in my own measly arsenal, collection, whatever.  Too big, bulky, and heavy for an EDC gun, IMHO.   But if they were cheap enough, I'd probably buy one just for the heckuvit.

Bought an M9 for my eldest son as a present when he was first commissioned in the USAF.   He did the sensible thing and sold it when his pack of rowdy boys got old enough to poke around in closets and figger out locks.

So---I really dunno what will go on the surplus market.   Moreso, I like those police trade-ins that Buds Gun Shop pops up with now and then.

sfg

I bought a LE Trade in 92 a few years back to use for class demo purposes..... Not sure I have ever shot it. It is a good gun to demo a DA/SA gun for folks, because there are a lot of DA/SA guns out there, and a lot of people who really don't understand how they operate even though they own one

[SemperFiGuy]

....and a lot of people who really don't understand how they operate even though they own one.

Roger that.

And then there's Those Folks that show up at CHP class, Big Smile:  "I got this brannew gun.   Haven't shot it yet."   Enuf to make a CHP Instructor blanch.

Not bein' snarky, smug, or anything like that.

Just Sayin'................

[BTW:  That M9 weighs 34.2oz unloaded.   By comparison, a Kahr PM9 weighs 16oz.   American troops always look like Army Ants struggling under their huge 80-100 pound field loads.   Like an ant carrying this huge grasshopper back to the anthill.]

sfg

[icephreaq]

On the Army side of things usually only officers and special ops are issued sidearms.  However, with all the shootings at reserve and recruiting centers in recent years full-time staff for reserve units have been qualifying with the 9 so that someone on site can be armed at the center.  My wife being in as one of those active duty full-timers is looking forward to something lighter but with more punch.  Unfortunately even with her CHP they won't let her carry her own M&P 40c so the new Sig will be a welcome change in her unit.

[shooter]

On the Army side of things usually only officers and special ops are issued sidearms.  However, with all the shootings at reserve and recruiting centers in recent years full-time staff for reserve units have been qualifying with the 9 so that someone on site can be armed at the center.  My wife being in as one of those active duty full-timers is looking forward to something lighter but with more punch.  Unfortunately even with her CHP they won't let her carry her own M&P 40c so the new Sig will be a welcome change in her unit.

  back years ago,, Armour crews were issued 1911.. I was a scout,, armoured cav,, and we carried a 1911 in a chest holster .. easy to get in and out of a hatch with that

[bullit]

I don't have any experience with the Sig P320, but have heard good things about it.....

I will say it is long overdue to get rid of that crappy Beretta 92.

Knowing the military, I will bet it came down to the safer disassembly feature of the 320 vice a Glock or S&W ...   it has be made for the dumbest of the dumb to not hurt themselves

[bullit]

I have no Military Experience myself, but my two oldest boys do so I can share their experiences in the Military over the last 5/6 years.

My oldest son was in the Navy, and trained with the M-9. He carried it over in Afghanistan, but never once used it. And actually he said not everyone was issued one over there.

My middle son went thru Army Basic about a year and a half ago, never even touched an M-9 in basic training (Or after). He is assigned to a SF Group, and they have access to many different handguns of their choice from what I understand

I was issued an M9 ... bent front sight and all ... I can only speak for the Navy and Marine Corps, but mostly Officers and NCOs are/were issued handguns outside of Spec Ops

[farmerbob]

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2017/01/24/grapevine-us-army-pays-207-per-pistol-sig-sauer-m17-modular-handguns/

[farmerbob]

Leave it to the government to pay a $1000 for a hammer and $200 dollars for a pistol?