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Author Topic: S. 1867-National Defense Authorization Act of 2012 how much does anyone know?  (Read 3069 times)

Offline dark 45

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i read,

""S. 1867 a.k.a. National Defense Authorization Act of 2012 was passed 12/3/2011 with a senate vote of 93 - 7.

Section 1031 allows for anyone in the world "SUSPECTED" of terrorist activity to be detained indefinitely without proper trial or conviction! Here are a list of things that might make you a "SUSPECTED" terrorist:

1. Owning multiple guns
2. Questioning the status quo
3. Owning ammunition
4. Storing non GMO seeds
5. Storing non perishable food supplies

The list goes on and on"""

from one of my friends, this is the first i have heard about it. i looked here for a few minutes and saw nothing about it. what does anyone know?

Offline DaveB

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Offline Dan W

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Needs to pass in the House before it is real, but it  my opinion it is just more of the same from an Obama administration that considers all conservatives to be "domestic terrorists"
Dan W    NFOA Co Founder
Today, we need a nation of Minutemen, citizens who are not only prepared to take arms, but citizens who regard the preservation of freedom as the basic purpose of their daily life and who are willing to consciously work and sacrifice for that freedom.   J. F. K.

Offline bkoenig

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It's not just Obama's allies.  7 dissenting votes means a substantial majority of Republicans also voted for it.  But, upon review it may not be as bad as it appears.

Text of bill as passed by Senate is here:

http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/BILLS-112s1867es/pdf/BILLS-112s1867es.pdf

As I read it this does not apply to U.S. citizens.  It's hard to decipher the legal mumbo jumbo so I may be wrong:

Quote
8 (b) APPLICABILITY TO UNITED STATES CITIZENS
9 AND LAWFUL RESIDENT ALIENS.—
10 (1) UNITED STATES CITIZENS.—The require-
11 ment to detain a person in military custody under
12 this section does not extend to citizens of the United
13 States.
14 (2) LAWFUL RESIDENT ALIENS.—The require-
15 ment to detain a person in military custody under
16 this section does not extend to a lawful resident
17 alien of the United States on the basis of conduct
18 taking place within the United States, except to the
19 extent permitted by the Constitution of the United
20 States

Offline Necede

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Does anyone know how our Senators voted?
A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity.         Sigmund Freud

Offline bkoenig

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Offline LM4202

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Subtitle D—Detainee Matters
 SEC. 1031. AFFIRMATION OF AUTHORITY OF THE ARMED FORCES OF THE UNITED STATES TO DETAIN  COVERED PERSONS PURSUANT TO THE AUTHORIZATION FOR USE OF MILITARY FORCE.
 (a) IN GENERAL.—Congress affirms that the authority of the President to use all necessary and appropriate force pursuant to the Authorization for Use of Military Force (Public Law 107–40) includes the authority for the Armed Forces of the United States to detain covered persons (as defined in subsection (b)) pending disposition
under the law of war.
 (b) COVERED PERSONS.—A covered person under this section is any person as follows:
 (1) A person who planned, authorized, committed, or aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001, or harbored those responsible for those attacks.
 (2) A person who was a part of or substantially supported al-Qaeda, the Taliban, or associated forces that are engaged in hostilities against the United States or its coalition partners, including any person who has committed a belligerent act or has directly
supported such hostilities in aid of such enemy forces.
  (c) DISPOSITION UNDER LAW OF WAR.—The disposition of a person under the law of war as described in subsection (a) may include the following:
     (1) Detention under the law of war without trial until the end of the hostilities authorized by the Authorization for Use of Military Force.
     (2) Trial under chapter 47A of title 10, United States Code (as amended by the Military Commissions Act of 2009 (title XVIII of Public Law 111– 84)).
     (3) Transfer for trial by an alternative court or competent tribunal having lawful jurisdiction.
     (4) Transfer to the custody or control of the person’s country of origin, any other foreign country, or any other foreign entity.
  (d) CONSTRUCTION.—Nothing in this section is intended to limit or expand the authority of the President or the scope of the Authorization for Use of Military Force.
  (e) AUTHORITIES.—Nothing in this section shall be construed to affect existing law or authorities, relating to the detention of United States citizens, lawful resident aliens of the United States or any other persons who are captured or arrested in the United States.


This is for the terrorists being held in Gitmo.  Where the hell is all these lies and fear mongering coming from?  Why don't people actually read the damn bill instead of passing off as fact, what someone else says?  Can't people read anymore and make up their own minds?

They need that in the bill for funding the Gitmo detention center.  Or should we just free all those Al Qaeda and Taliban terrorists?
« Last Edit: December 05, 2011, 02:47:45 AM by LM4202 »

Offline DanClrk51

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But this does apply to US Citizens abroad doesn't it? I do not like the precedent being set here this bill is bad. If a US Citizen is caught in acts of terrorism they still have a right to due process. Indefinite detention is bull**** regardless of who is being detained US Citizen or not! If the govt wants to lock someone up then they need to provide evidence and there needs to be checks and balances just as there always have been. Why do we need any more laws at this point in time?!! All of this is designed to creep closer and closer. It may be US Citizens and foreigners suspected of terrorism today but tomorrow they'll make a new argument that US Citizens should be detained indefinitely if suspected of terrorism.

Offline ScottC

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If the 'terrorist' doen't belong to any military and is actively working/plotting against the US I think they've given up their "rights."  (I'm not sure where under the US Constitution foreigners have "rights" to begin with - seems the Constitution is written to protect the US citizens, not everyone else.)  And they certainly forfeted them if they are here illegally.

I understand it's a fine line, but currently the US seems to bend over backwards to protect everyone but it's own citizens.  And when they do try to protect the US, everyone screams foul.

Instead of calling them a 'terrorist' (which holds a military reference which doesn't actually exist) we should just call them the murdering psycho-criminal skumbag trash they are.

Yea, I know: ask me how I really feel...

Offline rluening

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ScottC - the Bill of Rights doesn't actually apply to people - citizen or non citizen. It doesn't lay out which rights people "have", it just enumerates a list of rights that all humans have and on which the federal government will not infringe.

/rl

Offline Ronvandyn

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ScottC - the Bill of Rights doesn't actually apply to people - citizen or non citizen. It doesn't lay out which rights people "have", it just enumerates a list of rights that all humans have and on which the federal government will not infringe.

/rl

But does not have the power of law outside of the United States, its territories, or protectorates, human or otherwise.  To apply US law to someone residing in another country and committing a crime there would be a violation of international law.

Ron
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Offline JTH

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So here is a question, then---is the Bill of Rights a set of inalienable rights that all people have, or just people that are "ours"?

Either they are inalienable human rights, or they aren't. 

At what point in time do people give up those rights?  According to settled law in the U.S., after they are convicted of a crime.  We don't normally take away rights before that point.

So----is everyone equal in the eyes of the law?  Or are some people covered by the law, and some aren't?

Think about this for a second----why is it that suddenly geographic location is the defining characteristic of whether or not you are a human that has rights? 

Another way to think about it:  Do we really want to allow the government to start making up their own definitions of which people are really "people"? 

"Some are more equal than others." 

Last I knew, our Declaration of Independence said "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights"

....but those things that we consider Rights only count if you are a United States citizen on U.S. soil?   

Yes, I know there is a difference between law and philosophy.  So my question here for legal purposes is still "Do we want the government to define who is a person for the purposes of seeing whether or not they have any rights?" and my question for philosophical purposes is this:  "If you say that the 2nd amendment is a fundamental right, a right to self-defense, a right that everyone should have----is the end of that statement ...but only if you are a U.S. citizen?" 

(Whether or not other countries DO accept that right is not the point.  Whether you believe it is a fundamental human right IS the point.  And the rest of the things that we consider rights go right along with it.)

This bill is about the U.S. not applying its own laws to how it deals with people.  (And ignoring other people's laws, too, since we already do that.)

And this isn't about whether or not murdering scumbag trash get what they deserve--it is about whether or not WE really believe what we talk about when we say that people have rights.  (I'm all for terrorists getting their heads blown off.  This, however, is not the point.)

When you say "people have rights!" do you mean "because the Bill of Rights says so!" or do you mean "Because these are fundamental human rights!" ---because ONE of those cases can be changed because it is simply a law promulgated and enforced by a government, just like any other.
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Offline bkoenig

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Well said.  A common misconception is that the BOR gives rights.  It doesn't - the purpose was to recognize basic human rights that belong to all people.  Yes, the Constitution does not have the force of law beyond U.S. territory, but if we turn a blind eye to those rights beyond our borders we are ignoring the intent of our founders. 

As it reads now this bill does not allow for indefinite detention of Americans, but I think it's a slippery slope.  JTH, if you don't mind I would like to use your thoughts on some other forums where I have discussed this.

Offline CitizenClark

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But does not have the power of law outside of the United States, its territories, or protectorates, human or otherwise.  To apply US law to someone residing in another country and committing a crime there would be a violation of international law.

Ron

Ron, the U.S. Constitution acts to restrain the federal government no matter where it is operating. It isn't a matter of applying US law to people in other countries. If the United States government does not have the authority to do a particular thing, that doesn't merely limit US government actions here in the territory of the United States. It limits them everywhere.

Offline CitizenClark

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Well said.  A common misconception is that the BOR gives rights.  It doesn't - the purpose was to recognize basic human rights that belong to all people.  Yes, the Constitution does not have the force of law beyond U.S. territory...

The United States Constitution has the force of law over the actions of the United States Government no matter where those actions are carried out. It isn't about recognizing the rights of people in other countries. It is about recognizing the fact that the federal government is designed to be one with limited, enumerated powers. Using taxpayer money for things outside these enumerated powers is a violation of our rights.

Offline OnTheFly

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I agree with jthhapkido, bkoenig, and CitizenClark.  These are rights that all people have regardless of where they are or what country they are in.  We may not be able to guarantee an accused person a speedy trial when they are being tried under the laws of a foreign government, but we can avoid violating the inalienable rights of these people while they are in our custody.

That's why I fully support hiring companies like the former Blackwater to go in and sort it all out.  ;D Kidding of course.

Fly
Si vis pacem, para bellum

Offline DanClrk51

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I agree with jthhapkido, bkoenig, and CitizenClark.  These are rights that all people have regardless of where they are or what country they are in.  We may not be able to guarantee an accused person a speedy trial when they are being tried under the laws of a foreign government, but we can avoid violating the inalienable rights of these people while they are in our custody.
Kidding of course.

Fly

+1

Offline Ronvandyn

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Ron, the U.S. Constitution acts to restrain the federal government no matter where it is operating. It isn't a matter of applying US law to people in other countries. If the United States government does not have the authority to do a particular thing, that doesn't merely limit US government actions here in the territory of the United States. It limits them everywhere.

Yes, I know.  It limits the government and its actions.  But it does not protect those people residing outside of our nation and its territories, no matter what their citizenship is.  The idea of “inalienable rights” is a misnomer, different countries have their own ideas of what people’s rights are and apply them according to their understanding of those rights.  Many nations try to emulate what we are lucky enough to have here, but none actually duplicate it.  Unfortunately many more nations ignore what we have and go with their own versions of “human rights”, which occasionally gets some our citizens in deep poopoo. 

One thing that many “pro rights” folks miss when discussing the constitution is that the founding fathers also defined the responsibilities of the government to its citizens.  They laid the groundwork for what governments is supposed to do for us since we are paying the bills and providing it with workers.  They laid out how they are to represent our interests, protect us, and provide for our ability to seek our own paths in life without undue regulation.  Personally, I think they did a far better job giving us direction than we have in following it.  But that’s another story…

Ron
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Offline Roper

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I have a question into Senator Johanns as to why he supported this amendment and the bill.  We'll see if I get a response.
Concentrated power has always been the enemy of liberty.
Ronald Reagan

Offline CitizenClark

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I agree with jthhapkido, bkoenig, and CitizenClark.  These are rights that all people have regardless of where they are or what country they are in.  We may not be able to guarantee an accused person a speedy trial when they are being tried under the laws of a foreign government, but we can avoid violating the inalienable rights of these people while they are in our custody.

That's why I fully support hiring companies like the former Blackwater to go in and sort it all out.  ;D Kidding of course.

Fly

The enumerated powers of the federal government in Art. I, sec. 8 to declare war and issue letters of marque and reprisal notwithstanding, I'm not a fan of sending government troops or government-hired private troops anywhere but home. I'm all for protecting the right to hire mercenaries in one's private capacity, however. :)