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Author Topic: What minimum level of training should a CHP holder strive for?  (Read 2806 times)

Offline OnTheFly

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What minimum level of training should a CHP holder strive for?
« on: February 04, 2012, 05:57:46 PM »
I thought this subject was a healthy discussion that was started as a side topic from the thread "carry a loaded Glock with one in the chamber?".  So I decided to continue it here so as not to distract from the OP's question.

I am I highly motivated individual with limited funds...as are most of us.  I can't say that I have done all the training that I feel I should or that I would like to do.  I do think that the raw benefit of the CCW laws across the nation is not having highly trained individuals who will be able to save the day, but there is a threat of a potentially armed victim to those who would intend harm. 

With regards to Shawn's comment...

Quote from: sjwsti in post linked above
I have trained with LEOs that are very skilled and motivated and also LEOs that display terrible fundamentals and tactics that will most likely get them killed if they ever had to fight for their life. And the credit, or blame, can be laid at the feet of their training officers.

I would only partially agree.  I have been teaching/training (mostly in aviation related fields) for nearly 28 years and only part of the blame can be placed on the instructor.  Just as you have seen LEOs with abilities on both ends of the spectrum, I also see pilots with varying abilities and levels of motivation.  A motivated pilot with only moderate skills can be a great pilot due to their determination.  The opposite is also true.  Simply (and sadly) put, there is a large section of the population which will aim for the minimum applicable standards.  An instructor can dispense their vast knowledge on why the student should aspire to be better, they can even offer free instruction, but if the student is not motivated to improve themselves, they will maintain their mediocrity.

As far as instructors, there are some people who should never teach.  Whether due to their abilities, knowledge, skills of interaction, ego, or their own personal aspirations to mediocrity, there are some instructors who do more damage than good.

Fly
Si vis pacem, para bellum

Offline HuskerXDM

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Re: What minimum level of training should a CHP holder strive for?
« Reply #1 on: February 04, 2012, 06:42:59 PM »
  Simply (and sadly) put, there is a large section of the population which will aim for the minimum applicable standards.  An instructor can dispense their vast knowledge on why the student should aspire to be better, they can even offer free instruction, but if the student is not motivated to improve themselves, they will maintain their mediocrity.
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Offline OnTheFly

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Re: What minimum level of training should a CHP holder strive for?
« Reply #2 on: February 04, 2012, 08:54:21 PM »
As an example...I was on an airline sitting next to a very fit 20 or 30 something guy who had short hair, a trim and fit build (not that I was checking him out  ;D) and a particular military type look to him. I struck up a conversation with him and turns out he was an officer recently out of the Army.  He was working for a contractor going around teaching troops how to use a weapon system. 

Somehow we started talking about the fitness standards for the Army and he said he was disappointed when the Army lowered the requirements.  He said the Army's intention was to retain more of the soldiers that they had invested so much money in.  Their failure rate due to the fitness standards was X%.  In the short term, their plan worked.  The percentage passing was +X%, but soon the troops adjusted to the new lower expectations and they were right back at X%.  Disappointing to say the least.  I guess the Army motto should go something like "Army...Be all you can be, without trying too hard".  I'm not making fun of the Army, just people in general.

Fly
Si vis pacem, para bellum

Offline Dan W

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Re: What minimum level of training should a CHP holder strive for?
« Reply #3 on: February 04, 2012, 11:14:10 PM »
Awesome post over on AR15.com about mindset in street encounters with bad guys

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/1285487_Street_robberies_and_you___The_Basics.html    by BurnedOutLEO

Quote
While many say it is better to be lucky than good, no one is lucky every time. In this post I am going to attempt to provide some insight into street encounters. Other may have different viewpoints. I am not here to argue. I will say some of the comments I have seen posted in the threads about this sort of matter make me realize that while some ARFCOMMERS are clearly street veterans others are not. This is really for those who are not.

~read more at the link~

Dan W    NFOA Co Founder
Today, we need a nation of Minutemen, citizens who are not only prepared to take arms, but citizens who regard the preservation of freedom as the basic purpose of their daily life and who are willing to consciously work and sacrifice for that freedom.   J. F. K.

Offline OnTheFly

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Re: What minimum level of training should a CHP holder strive for?
« Reply #4 on: February 05, 2012, 12:12:56 AM »
Awesome post over on AR15.com about mindset in street encounters with bad guys

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/1285487_Street_robberies_and_you___The_Basics.html    by BurnedOutLEO

~read more at the link~



Wow! Great read.

Fly
Si vis pacem, para bellum

Offline bkoenig

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Dealing with street robberies
« Reply #5 on: February 05, 2012, 09:11:15 AM »
A police officer posted a very interesting write up over on Arfcom about street holdups.  It has some very blunt language so it's probably not appropriate to post here since this is a family friendly forum, but I think anyone interested in self defense should read it.  Here's a few things I took away:

- Always be aware of your surroundings and other people in the area.  If you see someone who shouldn't be there, they are not up to any good.  If you see two guys crossing a parking lot towards you and they start to fan out, you need to let them know you're prepared.  flip your shirt tail up, have your hand ready to draw, etc.  A visual cue like that lets them know they need to move along. 

- If someone has progressed from simple theft to violent hold ups they most likely won't have second thoughts about killing you.  These people don't think like you and I.  In their twisted minds they're the victims and deserve your property.  Your life is worth nothing to them.

- When someone who's not "right" approaches you, you need to end the encounter right away.  Refuse to be a victim.  The answer is always NO.  Doesn't matter if they're asking for a cigarette, trying to sell you some cleaning products, or begging for change.  They're testing you to see if you're going to be a compliant victim.

I would like to hear some opinions from those of you who've had advanced training, like Shawn and Chris.  I think this guy brings up some very good points.  One thing I'm not sure about is his view on when to draw.  He seems to advocate drawing at the first hint that something may not be right.  I think legally you could get in trouble with that, but his point is that a hold up man isn't going to call the cops to report someone threatened them.

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/1285487_Street_robberies_and_you___The_Basics.html&page=1




Edit:  I see Dan posted this in OnTheFly's thread about training.  Dan, if you want to merge this that would be ok with me.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2012, 09:20:47 AM by bkoenig »

Offline Gunscribe

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Re: What minimum level of training should a CHP holder strive for?
« Reply #6 on: February 05, 2012, 11:00:14 AM »
 "I think legally you could get in trouble with that, but his point is that a hold up man isn't going to call the cops to report someone threatened them."
 

They will be the first ones to call the cops if you pull a gun on them. It will be revenge for not being one of the sheeple. Any time you draw be the first to report it.



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Offline bkoenig

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Re: What minimum level of training should a CHP holder strive for?
« Reply #7 on: February 05, 2012, 11:28:09 AM »
"I think legally you could get in trouble with that, but his point is that a hold up man isn't going to call the cops to report someone threatened them."
 

They will be the first ones to call the cops if you pull a gun on them. It will be revenge for not being one of the sheeple. Any time you draw be the first to report it.





That was kind of my thought.  Overall I think he had some very good information, but I've always been under the impression that you shouldn't draw unless you plan on using it.

Offline OnTheFly

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Re: What minimum level of training should a CHP holder strive for?
« Reply #8 on: February 05, 2012, 11:33:20 AM »
That was kind of my thought.  Overall I think he had some very good information, but I've always been under the impression that you shouldn't draw unless you plan on using it.

That is a tough call.  Say the BG calls it in for revenge as Gunscribe says, now are you in trouble for brandishing a weapon?  Just because you are the first to call it in doesn't mean you won't be in trouble.  Criminals in general are pretty stupid IMHO, and I wonder if the police will discount the BG's complaint if they know them or see their rap sheet.

Fly
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Offline sjwsti

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Re: What minimum level of training should a CHP holder strive for?
« Reply #9 on: February 05, 2012, 11:42:27 AM »
I have been given similar advice by people with similar backgrounds as this guy. I have taken it seriously.

When do you draw your weapon? I cant tell you that. That is a decision that only you can make.

How it is related in the article seems valid to me. You recognize a possible threat, let the BG know that you see him and show him an indicator that you may be armed. He ignores this, you move to cover and get your gun in your hand. It isn't pointing at him, you haven't verbally challenged him, he may or may not have even seen you draw (but if he were to catch a glimpse of it......)

At this point lets say he calls 911 and wants to report you for threatening him. I think (remember I'm not a lawayer) this would be easily defendable. Could you be cited for disturbing the peace or terroristic threats or even assault? Maybe. I personally know civilians who have had to do this and were not cited. Chris Z. is certainly more qualified than I am to answer about the legal ramifications.

Key points; be aware of your surroundings, don't deny any gut feelings telling you something is wrong, don't let the fear of legal issues prevent you from doing what you have to do to save your life, action always beats reaction.

The author does a great job at giving you several ways to get a BG to back off before you are actually pointing your gun at him. The CCW holder most likely to get into trouble is the one that over reacts and is pointing their gun at someone too soon, or the one that fails to react at all and is ambushed.

What can we do to make sure that we don't over react or under react? Have a proper mindset, know the law, get some advanced instruction (DVDs, books, classes...) and train not only the physical skills but the mental ones.

- Shawn

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Offline Lorimor

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Re: What minimum level of training should a CHP holder strive for?
« Reply #10 on: February 05, 2012, 02:24:23 PM »
Getting a firing grip on your handgun beneath your jacket or shirt isn't a bad idea at all.  You've already cut your draw time in half, or maybe a little more. 

I would think drawing discretely would be good too, depending on circumstances of course. 

The article suggests again the importance of situational awareness, which supersedes skill and equipment.  I'm beginning to think this awareness stuff is kinda important. 

As far as training, I don't think too many will argue against it.  Unfortunately, good training is usually expensive.   There are many good videos on the market now which are definitely better than nothing. 

I have to say the local training I've gotten has been pretty good.  Don't think you've been cheated or are missing something if you can't make it to Gunsite or Thunder Ranch. 

This guy has a lot of good advice too: http://www.spw-duf.info/

"It is better to avoid than to run; better to run than to de-escalate; better to de-escalate than to fight; better to fight than to die. The very essence of self-defense is a thin list of things that might get you out alive when you are already screwed." – Rory Miller

Offline sjwsti

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Re: What minimum level of training should a CHP holder strive for?
« Reply #11 on: February 05, 2012, 02:44:50 PM »
Quote
A motivated pilot with only moderate skills can be a great pilot due to their determination.  The opposite is also true.  Simply (and sadly) put, there is a large section of the population which will aim for the minimum applicable standards.  An instructor can dispense their vast knowledge on why the student should aspire to be better, they can even offer free instruction, but if the student is not motivated to improve themselves, they will maintain their mediocrity.

As far as instructors, there are some people who should never teach.  Whether due to their abilities, knowledge, skills of interaction, ego, or their own personal aspirations to mediocrity, there are some instructors who do more damage than good.

Fly

To add to the original question (Ive got some time to kill) I agree completely. There are students that could care less about the quality of instruction they are being given. I see this mostly in "required" classes such as the CCW training courses. But see it rarely when the student has sought out the training and wants to be there. This is were my comment about instructors applies most.

The LEOs I am referring to were all motivated and wanted to train. But it was obvious that what they had been taught was crap. Unfortunately there are no standards of training when it comes to firearms or self defense, even in law enforcement. If you have nothing to compare your experience to, you will most likely be convinced that what you are being taught is great, when in fact it isnt. Your success or failure will depend greatly on your Instructor.

To compare it to training to be a pilot, and correct me if Im wrong, I assume that some flight schools are better than others. But at the end you will get basically the same information by the time you graduate. Paramedic training is like this, everyone has to meet the same basic standard and what the individual student chooses to do with it is their choice. They can choose to excel or be a POS. Ive seen both. Here your success or failure has less to do with your Instructor and more on your personal attitude and motivation.

So how much training do you need? IMO I believe that there is a certain amount of information and skills that you should have. I have put that info into roughly 27hrs of training classes. This is only the time needed to gain the knowledge, not the time required to actually get any good at it. That time will vary from person to person.

This is a video showing what happens to a professed "master" of fighting once he actually gets punched in the face. He had obviously convinced himself, and Im sure many students, that he was something that he isnt. I hope he isnt teaching any shooting classes.

- Shawn

 
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Offline Lorimor

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Re: What minimum level of training should a CHP holder strive for?
« Reply #12 on: February 05, 2012, 04:05:04 PM »
Giving this some more thought.  The great thing about multi-day schools, like one would experience at Gunsite or Shootrite, is the additional time burns the new skills into the shooter's mind. 

And onsite training, where one is exposed to room clearing exercises in a shoot house, really hammers home the techniques.  It quickly becomes apparent solo house clearing is a very risky behavior. 

The basics are the basics for the most part.  There may be different approaches to clearing malfunctions but the differences aren't huge.  It's good to experience the different techniques. 
"It is better to avoid than to run; better to run than to de-escalate; better to de-escalate than to fight; better to fight than to die. The very essence of self-defense is a thin list of things that might get you out alive when you are already screwed." – Rory Miller

Offline OnTheFly

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Re: What minimum level of training should a CHP holder strive for?
« Reply #13 on: February 05, 2012, 04:28:32 PM »
Shawn,

You are correct in your assumptions regarding aviation training.  In general, you get the same information, it is a matter of how the student decides to use it. 

When you said...

The LEOs I am referring to were all motivated and wanted to train. But it was obvious that what they had been taught was crap. Unfortunately there are no standards of training when it comes to firearms or self defense, even in law enforcement. If you have nothing to compare your experience to, you will most likely be convinced that what you are being taught is great, when in fact it isnt. Your success or failure will depend greatly on your Instructor.

...were these LEOs taking extra courses above what was required at their own discretion? Or were these individuals who showed exceptional motivation by joining the SWAT team?  If either of these were the case, then I would say that they were not the typical person who only aspires to the minimum required.  However, if you are talking about a LEO taking a required class, then my prior assessment still stands.  Some of the issues may be attributed to the teacher, and in your example that was likely the issue.  However, as a general rule, people who are taking a basic required course will not attempt to exceed any standards set.  Again, from personal experiences in my world, you would think that pilots are highly motivated people that try to be the best they can be, but that is just not the case.  Many will walk the walk and buy the cool sunglasses, but they just don't live up to the image they are trying to present.

Again, someone who wants to be a SWAT member or FAA designated Check Airman will get to those positions by working hard to exceed the standards.  The rest set their sights on simply passing.  Maybe I just have a negative attitude.  Possibly I have a negative perception from my experience in aviation.  Or maybe pilots are just some of the laziest people around and this does not apply to LEOs or other fields.  But I don't think I am too far off. 

Fly
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Offline sjwsti

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Re: What minimum level of training should a CHP holder strive for?
« Reply #14 on: February 05, 2012, 05:11:57 PM »
...were these LEOs taking extra courses above what was required at their own discretion? Or were these individuals who showed exceptional motivation by joining the SWAT team?  If either of these were the case, then I would say that they were not the typical person who only aspires to the minimum required.  However, if you are talking about a LEO taking a required class, then my prior assessment still stands.  Some of the issues may be attributed to the teacher, and in your example that was likely the issue.  However, as a general rule, people who are taking a basic required course will not attempt to exceed any standards set.   

You`re right, none of the LEOs Im referring to were satisfied with doing the bare minimum. But the minimum will depend on were their dept sets the scale.

I have seen numerous examples of Officers showing up to do advanced training with terrible fundamentals and tactics. Can I say that it is absolutely their training divisions fault? No. But their deficiencies should have been caught, even if they happened to slip through the cracks during their initial training. That is if their trainers  were doing their job properly.

For example, we had an Officer on the Chicago PD attend the Level 1-2 Strike course. He wanted to be there and was paying his own way. Guy couldn't hit the broadside of a barn. After some one on one we figured out that he had no clue how to properly use the sights on his duty weapon. He had been on the PD for more than a year. Once we showed him what he needed to do he shot very well. That was a direct failure of his Dept and how they train.

When you speak of SWAT Officers, you are right, they are the best trained and most motivated LEOs on their Depts. There is a particular team that I have worked with that wont allow their bunker/shield man to have a gun in his other hand while he is carrying it, he is required to have a Taser. Keep in mind this is the first guy through the door. When asked about this policy their reply was that they dont have anyone that can shoot well enough one handed. So instead of finding someone that can teach them how to shoot better one handed they simply lower the standard. And in my opinion put this Officer at risk. Another example of a Depts failure to train its most motivated people properly.

Obviously all of these less than ideal conditions exist. Good trainers with lousy students, lousy trainers with good students. Ive seen more of one and it seems you have seen more of the other. Both are quite frustrating.

Certainly there is no helping the lazy and unmotivated. Its kinda scary when you realize that some of those POSs are sworn to protect and serve or are flying the plane that you just boarded.  :o

- Shawn
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Offline OnTheFly

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Re: What minimum level of training should a CHP holder strive for?
« Reply #15 on: February 05, 2012, 06:14:25 PM »
Certainly there is no helping the lazy and unmotivated. Its kinda scary when you realize that some of those POSs are sworn to protect and serve or are flying the plane that you just boarded.  :o

Amen brotha!  The funny thing is that most people assume the opposite.  A professional in uniform (pilot, LEO, etc.) has the aura of being an expert in their field. 

To calm the nerves of any white knuckle flyers out there, I am not saying that the pilots as a whole are unsafe.  They just lack personal motivation to be better.  As Shawn has said, that is why the standards have to be set.

Fly
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Offline JTH

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Re: What minimum level of training should a CHP holder strive for?
« Reply #16 on: February 07, 2012, 03:48:03 PM »
WARNING:  This is REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY long.    (Apparently I had some time today to sit down and blather.)  This is regarding the original questions about how much training/what level of skill is "enough".  (There have been some other good things said related to that, but this really horribly long post is just about the original question.)


Note:  The following statements are my feelings and opinions on this topic.  So even if I'm stating things as absolutes, that is because *I* feel they are that way, as opposed to saying "I know the Ultimate Truth(™) and you should all believe me!"  So, take the following as you will.  Or ignore it.

What is the minimum level of training necessary for CHP holders?  And what is the minimum level you should strive for?

In my opinion, these are two very separate questions.


Minimum level of training necessary for CHP holders?

Be safe with a handgun so that when you load, unload, put the gun on, and take the gun off, you don't shoot yourself.  That's pretty much it.

Most CHP holders will never need their weapon.  Ever.  Especially if they are smart enough to avoid the the "S"s of altercations:
1) Being in Stupid places,
2) doing Stupid things,
3) with Stupid people.

If you don't do the above, your chance of ever needing your weapon is throughly remote.  Not zero, but so close to it that comparatively, you are much more likely to kill yourself slipping and falling (seriously, you are more likely to do that, especially in Nebraska winters) than to ever need a concealed weapon.

As such, as long as you can safely handle it (and thus, not shoot yourself or anyone else on a daily basis) you'll be fine.

This, by the way, is why when people talk about effective training, choice of equipment, reliability, mindset, awareness, etc, you get hordes of people posting all the time about how they "do just fine without all that" as they are "good enough for what they need" even though they don't actually know enough to realize how little skill they have.

But since most people won't ever need any training other than safety training, because they'll never be in a situation in which they need to use their firearm, they can rest secure in their self-image no matter how wrong.  (Or how annoying to others who actually go and practice, and actually know how they score on objective standards.)

This isn't to say that some people don't shoot well without formal training of some sort---but it is certainly true that most don't.

Don't believe me?  There is a simple way to find that out:  Try a competition, such as Steel Challenge, or USPSA.  Neither one tests defensive tactics, they are both straightforward tests of shooting ability

For those of you who had been shooting awhile, and did exactly that (tried a competition)---how'd your competition go?  What did it tell you about your shooting ability? 

This, by the way, is also why a number of people try competition once, then don't come back, saying they don't need it and it doesn't teach defensive shooting.  They are right in that it has nothing to do with defensive tactics---but that isn't why they stopped.  They stopped because it showed them they couldn't shoot well, and they couldn't handle it.  This, by the way, is separate from the people who shot Open for awhile, then decided that their Open gun practice was teaching them things that wouldn't apply to their carry gun, so they stopped.  Different situation in that case.  Though there are plenty of people who instead started shooting in Production with their carry gun, to work on shooting skills with THAT gun...

Note:  Competition is NOT training.  Nor is it practice.  Competition is testing, and those three things (training, practice, and testing) are very different.  If all the shooting you do is one competition a month, that is better than not shooting at all--but if you can only shoot once a month, you'll get better if you use that time for actual practice.

That's another post, though.  :)  Back to the point:

Most people don't shoot well, with respect to any objective standard related to defensive shooting.  (Try the FAST drill.  Or the Hackathorn standards.  Or the FAS test.  Or the old FAM qualification.  Did you pass?  How did you do?)  Most people are untrained---and not really good at shooting unless it involves shooting at/near a pop can 10 feet away at a friend's place.  (Or unless they are on the internet.  Everyone is amazing on the internet.)  However, since a vast majority of people will never need their gun, it doesn't really matter as long as they know enough to be safe with a handgun.

Now---the question that IS actually important:

What is the minimum level you should strive for?

That's a completely different thing.

Think about it for a second---you carry a concealed weapon because you think there is a possibility that you might need it.  If you need it (and are legally able to use it) it means that you are in fear for your life.  You are under the threat of death or seriously bodily harm (for example, paralysis, loss of a limb, loss of an eye, etc).  Or you fear such things for someone you love.

Given that---how trained should you be?  How reliable should your firearm be?  How efficient should your equipment be?  (This ended up being the subject of a fairly intense discussion at the last CCW class I held.)

I'll leave the equipment and firearm discussion out, since that also is a whole 'nother post.

So how trained should you be?  Or rather, how skilled should you be?

It helps to define the situation:  If you are in fear for your life, then obviously people are trying to kill/seriously injure you.  The situations that are lethal in nature (and justify a lethal-level response) are:

1) Large disparity of force
2) multiple attackers
3) weapons

(Noting that the last two automatically confer the first.)

So---if only choice 1, then the attacker is much stronger/larger than you, and trying to kill you with his bare hands.  As such, he will be close.  If choice 2, there are multiple people at close range trying to kill you, and if choice 3, they are either at close range (ex: knife) or anywhere from close to distant (ex: gun).

So, what I think: 

A) I think you should have solid shooting training such that your skills are sufficient to:

1: score under 10 seconds on the FAST drill.  http://pistol-training.com/drills/the-fast  (Preferably under 8 seconds. Reasonable goal for under 7.)

2: Be able to achieve a 100% on the NE Law Enforcement Qualification course from concealment with a concealed magazine pouch.  (No IPDA vests and such---using your actual CCW rig.)  And not merely a passing score---a 100%.  All hits.  (You have tons of time.)  http://www.nletc.state.ne.us/pdfs/FireQual.pdf

3: Get a passing score (7 out of 9 hits) on the Hackathorn 3-Second Head Shot Standards from concealment.  http://pistol-training.com/drills/3-second-head-shot-standards

4: From concealment, draw and fire 4 shots into the A-zone of an IPSC metric target, or the -0 zone of an IDPA target, at 7 yards in under 3.50 seconds.  Consistently.  (Short-Bill drill.) 

Why these? 

The FAST drill checks drawing to a low-percentage target, hard splits, easy splits, slidelock reloads, and fast followup shots.  And penalizes poor accuracy significantly.  (To get it within 8 seconds, a 3.5 draw/2 shots, a  3 second reload, and 1.5 seconds for the other three shots on an 8" circle will get it done.  This isn't that difficult IF your trigger control is sufficient to get your hits.)

The NE LEO Qual is straightforward and easy from a time perspective, but you have to draw, reload, and shift targets multiple times at different distances out to 15 yards---and get all your hits (which isn't hard, because the target is huge).

The Hack can be tough for many people, because of the transitions and speed necessary.  That being said, if you have a 2-second draw, you still have 0.5 seconds for each transition.  How precise are you?  If you don't have a 2-second draw from concealment, how do you think you'll ever get your gun out in time when someone is attacking you?

The Short-Bill checks whether you can draw and fire immediately on a high-percentage target, and THEN keep control through fast followup shots.  Why not six, then, a more-standard Bill Drill?  Well, 1) that really burns through the ammo, and 2) four shots is enough to see if your grip and recoil control is sufficient for rapid fire.

There are plenty of other perfectly good drills out there, and these standards aren't difficult to meet.  And these four are what come to mind just off the top of my head when I think about shooting skills for self-defense. 

This is what I consider "minimum".  That doesn't mean you shouldn't carry if you can't do them---but if you can't, in my opinion you need to work on your shooting skills because under stress, when someone is trying to kill your child, you may not be fast and accurate enough to save them. 

I note plenty of people have defended themselves perfectly well with skills significantly below what is outlined above.  I'm not saying that without this level, you won't be able to protect yourself---I'm saying that unless your skills are at this level at a minimum, you really don't have the level of skills necessary to do the shooting you might need, no matter what your other skills are.  It may work out anyway---but relying on luck isn't a good tactical or strategic plan.

So that was shooting skills---what about the other stuff?

B) Well, do you know anything about close-in defense?  Do you know the basics of empty-hand defense well enough to use them and be able to transition to your firearm while maintaining that defense?

C) Do you know how to work multiple attackers?  Do you have the basics of lining them up?  Prioritizing?  Can you couple this with your empty-hand-to-firearm defense techniques?

D) Do you know the basics of weapons defense?  Club, knife, gun?  The basic idea of what to do from contact distance, 3 feet, 5 feet, and 8+ feet? 

After all, those are the situations that you'll be in if you need to use your firearm.  Do you know the basic tactics?  Have an overall strategic plan for defense?

E) Have you integrated into your plan how to keep your family safe?  You won't just get attacked when you are out by yourself--if you have a wife in tow (or a husband for those female CCWers) and you or your spouse is carrying a baby, it can (and does) happen.  Do you know what to do?  Have you talked with your family about what to do?

How much time have you spent thinking about what is most likely to happen to you, and how much time have you spent learning about how to deal with it?

In my opinion, for someone to consider themselves at a basic minimum level of readiness for CCW, I think they need to have had training and practice in the points B though E listed above.  How much?  Well, that depends on how good the class is---AND how much you actually practice. 

Locally, several different people teach B-D, above. (Sometimes all in the same class, though D has a number of different aspects that really require either a longer class, or two different classes at minimum. In-close weapon work and distance work really are two very different issues.)  None are expensive.  If money is an issue, take one a year until you've had one from each instructor.  If someone is really good, take the next level class from that instructor.  If you like it, and really want to build skills, practice a lot and then take more.

(How do you know if what you are learning is actually good stuff?  Look at what is taught out there.  Read.  Study.  In class, did it work for you in scenario training?  How about force-on-force practice?  It is nice to learn from someone who you like---but you aren't there to make friends, you are there to learn effective technique.  Did you?)

Which brings up something else---if you are training for self-defense, at SOME point in time you need to participate in adrenaline-based scenario training.  If nothing else, you need to be stressed in practice occasionally.

You learn a lot REALLY FAST when you get shot in the facemask with an AirSoft gun, and realize you are dead.

There is lots more to say, but this is long enough.  To sum up:

1) Try a Steel Challenge or USPSA competition, or attempt the qualifications listed above.  If you find that your shooting isn't what you thought, take a shooting skills class of some sort.  Not tactics, nothing specialized---just solid shooting skills.   That'll cost $110 or so for a local class.

2) If you CCW and expect to actually be skilled enough to use it effectively in an emergency situation, take some sort of CQT (Close Quarters Techniques/Tactics) class, and some sort of DT (Defensive Tactics) class to give you an introduction to the basic techniques and tactics.  There's another $115 each locally.

You don't have to take those three classes all at once.  Quite frankly, one or two a year is probably more than enough since you should then be going and practicing the techniques and skills from the class.  This takes time.  You've got to practice.

Shooting skills are perishable.  This doesn't mean you have to practice daily or anything.  (Unless you actually want to be really good.)  However, to maintain a minimum skill level, doing 10 minutes of dryfire a week (using a well-thought-out drill plan) and going to the range for live fire once a month will make a significant difference in the maintenance of your abilities.  It won't maintain a high level (you'd need more practice than that) but it will maintain a useful level. 

This is under the assumption that you have good solid fundamentals in the first place, know what to practice both in dryfire and in live fire, and actually have the knowledge to maintain those skills.

After all that---I still betting that any number of people have read this and said in their own heads "I haven't/can't do any of those things/been to any classes like that and I can still defend myself perfectly well!"

Really?  How do you know?  Have you had to?  If so, did you get by on luck, or are you really that good? 

Or are you saying that merely because you've never had to? 

----

Okay, that's just my opinion.  Take of it as you will, feel free to ignore it. 
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http://precisionresponsetraining.com

Offline kozball

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Re: What minimum level of training should a CHP holder strive for?
« Reply #17 on: February 07, 2012, 05:01:18 PM »
Yes it was, and it is very accurate in my belief..........

Most of things that you said, I have no first hand knowledge of except for shooting competitions.
So for a shorter story.   ;D

I participated in a "Steel Match" in July of last year. It was my first match of any kind. Now I went and watched numerous matches before this and thought that it looked pretty easy.....Well..........
I knew what I needed to do, but my body told me I had no clue of what to do. I proceded to shoot my first stage of 5 strings, so 25 hits. Easy enough. 35.79 seconds for the 4 BEST strings that were scored. Not bad, only 1.75 seconds per hit. I was better than 9 people, worse than 34. ouch.

The funny part is, after you shoot your stage, you need to reload your mags to get ready for the next stage. My problem was I couldn't do it. I was shaking so bad that I could not put my loading tool over my mags to drop in the ammo.                       Adrenaline?      ????????? at a steel shoot?       ?????????

With that said, I can't imagine being in a life and death situation that I needed to draw on somebody. The reaction that your body would / will have. Not sure how to describe it. Adrenaline is  very powerfull.

That is why you practice and take classes and do competitions and more practice and classes and competition...............................IMOP

« Last Edit: February 07, 2012, 05:03:35 PM by kozball »
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Offline JTH

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Re: What minimum level of training should a CHP holder strive for?
« Reply #18 on: February 07, 2012, 07:17:20 PM »
[snip]
I participated in a "Steel Match" in July of last year. It was my first match of any kind. Now I went and watched numerous matches before this and thought that it looked pretty easy.....Well..........
I knew what I needed to do, but my body told me I had no clue of what to do. I proceded to shoot my first stage of 5 strings, so 25 hits. Easy enough. 35.79 seconds for the 4 BEST strings that were scored. Not bad, only 1.75 seconds per hit. I was better than 9 people, worse than 34. ouch.

Koz did a perfectly good job---and 1.75 seconds per hit on average is just fine.  (He looked like he was having fun, too!)

Now---he was shooting a .22 with iron sights, so he didn't have to draw from a holster on every string.  (.22 folks start with the pistol in both hands pointed downrange at an orange cone on the ground.) The fastest person shooting a centerfire pistol with iron sights (stock G34) who did have to draw from a holster, shooting the same stage, did it in 17.23 seconds. (And that person wasn't a Steel Challenge specialist, and he was shooting a Production pistol.)

(Fastest Centerfire Open guy did it in 16.04.  Fastest .22 Open guy did it in 14.99.)

First matches show you a LOT about how you can shoot.  Which is one reason why I really suggest people go down to Lincoln during the summer and shoot Zeeb's Rock Your Glock matches.  Great intro competition for folks to try.  So's Steel Challenge.

Mostly, we really aren't good at rating our own shooting capabilities unless we have someone else to compare to, or some known standard to compare against.  (Hence the standards and tests I posted.)

And once you know (and once you know how much better it is possible to be) you can work on being better at the various shooting skills.  (Plus competitions are a lot of fun.  Brief advertising:  Next Steel Challenge match is Sunday, February 19th!  :) )

Quote
The funny part is, after you shoot your stage, you need to reload your mags to get ready for the next stage. My problem was I couldn't do it. I was shaking so bad that I could not put my loading tool over my mags to drop in the ammo.                       Adrenaline?      ????????? at a steel shoot?       ?????????
[snip]
That is why you practice and take classes and do competitions and more practice and classes and competition...............................IMOP

Adrenaline is adrenaline, no matter why it gets set off----and lots of people get shaky after a stage.  Perfectly normal, though it is really strange the first time it happens!

Stress training is useful stuff.  And even basic shooting competitions help.
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Offline OnTheFly

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Re: What minimum level of training should a CHP holder strive for?
« Reply #19 on: February 07, 2012, 07:27:50 PM »
jthhapkido,

Really? That's all you have to say? I thought you might have a few more details.  ;D  Seriously though, that is all great information for myself and anyone else who stumbles onto this thread.

Fly
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