CHP Student At Big Shots Shoots Himself Sunday.

[bullit]

The nylon floppy holsters just aren't safe and should not be used at all for the CCW classes. 

"Nylon is great for pantyhose, not holsters." -Clint Smith

[SemperFiGuy]

Some Strange CHP Range Qualification Adventures:

>Students who come up with a Great Big Grin and say, "I've got this Brand New Pistol.........I've never shot it before!!!!!!"

>Students who bring .45ACPs to shoot and .45GAP ammo to shoot in them.

>Students who bring Ruger Single Sixes [check them out] to class and don't know how they work.   And hold the entire line up while they try to work them.

>Students who load the cartridges backwards in the magazines   [Yes--it can be and has been done.....more than once.]

>Students who put the muzzle of their handguns into their stomach areas to provide additional leverage while clearing jams.

>Students who bring Smash-bang Loudenboomers [.454Casull, .44RemMag, etc.] to class and want to qualify with them.

>Pistol Wavers.....Muzzle here; muzzle there.  Muzzle, Muzzle Everywhere.

>Serious Tremblers and Shakers.  Cool as a cucumber off the firing line.  Gun in hand??   The Shaking Commences.   A strange thing to see.

>Bringers of Incredibly Antique Handguns that will never be used for Concealed Carry and which righteously belong in the NRA museum.

>Saturday Night Specials.   Jam Factories.   [Last one I had, it was shoot a round and jam.   Clear.   Shoot.   Jam.   About 50 rounds worth.]

>Handguns that just won the Dirtiest Gun in the Armory Award.

I am not dissing my students.   Never.   I luv 'em.   And enjoy working with them.  If asked, they will merrily confirm this statement.

It is simply that these items above and many, many other strange instances are encountered at the Range Qualification stage in CHP classes.   Surely other CHP instructors could add to this list.   We could write a book.

CHP Range Qualification is only the smallest of steps in preparing CHP holders for safe handgun carry.   It's a gateway to serious safety study and practice.   I wish that it was a certainty that folks would do so after their CHP arrives in the mail.

Holstering a handgun is one of the more dangerous events which takes place during CHP qualification.

Which is why my classes holster handguns with empty chambers.  Has nothing to do with real life on-the-street concealed carry practice.  Has to do with here-and-now safety at a specific shooting event.


sfg

[Bucket]

I took SFG's CHP course and back the method used for a couple of reasons.  Many people in these classes are taking their "first" range instruction whether or not they feel they have a "working knowledge" of firearms.  We had one guy who assumed he knew what he was doing repeatedly ignore range commands even after several corrections. (I was kinda hoping SFG would give the guy a little "Come to Jesus" talk, Marine Corps style  )  He repeatedly covered the poor guy in lane 8 enough times that he kept flinching and stepping back.  Wife & I standing behind waiting for our turn on the line gravitated over to wait behind lanes 1&2.  I wanted her concentrating on the range instructions and what SHE was doing, not worrying over what the person to the left would do.  Advanced training course? Go ahead and holster a live round.  First time course? You're not really gaining anything extra other than the risk of an accidental/negligient discharge.  No offense but some of you "old guys" hear suggestions not instructions.     We all passed, no one limped away, I'd say SFG's method is sound.

All the more reason, in my opinion, to beef up the safety requirements and/or instruction as part of the class.  It seeems counter-intuitive to me to certify that people have completed a CCW course that includes a required section of firearms safety without ensuring that they are safe with a loaded, holstered weapon.  Isn't that what the class is for?  Granted, there are a variety of skill levels that show up, but I would hope there is a minimum standard that folks have when they walk out the door.

I guess it just doesn't make sense to me to refrain from teaching something on the range because it's unsafe, bu then assume they are trained once they leave the class.

The only firearms training I ever received prior to my recent CCW class was in the military.  Typically they were one day events where we had morning class followed by qualification on the range.  I assumed I was pretty ignorant about firearms when I started shooting on my own in Jan, but after a few range sessions, I'm amazed at the level of ignorance out there.  I'm almost afraid to go to the Bullet Hole when it's crowded!

[unfy]

I'm almost afraid to go to the Bullet Hole when it's crowded!

While I've seen some folks do some silly things in regard to shooting.... I've never seen anyone at the BH actually be dangerous.  Maybe I've been lucky, I dunno... but never felt the compulsion to ask someone to stop doing whatever they're doing for safety reasons.

The CCW class being a mix of introduction to 'this is a gun' as well as some thoughts on CCW specific stuff is indeed a weird mix to try to cover.  ChrisZ was my CCW instructor and he did quite well IMHO.  Disclaimer: I hand out ChrisZ's and SFG's CCW business cards to anyone that shows an interest .

[Bucket]

While I've seen some folks do some silly things in regard to shooting.... I've never seen anyone at the BH actually be dangerous.  Maybe I've been lucky, I dunno... but never felt the compulsion to ask someone to stop doing whatever they're doing for safety reasons.

The CCW class being a mix of introduction to 'this is a gun' as well as some thoughts on CCW specific stuff is indeed a weird mix to try to cover.  ChrisZ was my CCW instructor and he did quite well IMHO.  Disclaimer: I hand out ChrisZ's and SFG's CCW business cards to anyone that shows an interest .

I recently took Rod Moeller's CCW class.  I can't say enough good about it.  The range portion was very safe, with two instructors for 3 people on the line.  Everything was slow and deliberate with a keen emphasis on safety.  While I'm not an experienced shooter, I'm comfortable conducting myself on a range.  I was glad to see the very up close and personal instruction given to the other two participants in my shooting group.  That instruction included muzzle control, finger control, and slow careful holstering.

[AFLt]

taking my class this saturday

and reading through this thread is just making me nervous   

[unfy]

Concerning quiet draw and stuff, apparently Sean disagrees with my assertion of it not being as important:

http://nebraskafirearms.org/forum/index.php/topic,8860.0/topicseen.html

Stealth draw; We all should be practicing this. I see it in a lot of civilian SD shooting videos. The guys that carry without a round chambered, how will you pull this off?

So... there ya go.

[sjwsti]

Concerning quiet draw and stuff, apparently Sean disagrees with my assertion of it not being as important:

http://nebraskafirearms.org/forum/index.php/topic,8860.0/topicseen.html

So... there ya go.

  Just read through this, I wasnt picking on you bro. Just see the stealth draw a lot in videos of shootings and its just one more presentation of the gun that we should practice. No more or less important.

Glad the subject of this thread is okay. Sometimes mistakes hurt, glad it wasnt fatal.

When people register for our CCW class we explain in detail that it isnt a "learn how to shoot" class. Its a demonstrate your proficiency class. If you show up and cant safely handle and operate your firearm you will fail and have to retake the course. Its not my job to help you pass. I will do everything I can within reason to assist but in the end its up to the student to meet the minimum standard.

And if anyone on this board attended a certain class, by a certain instructor, that didnt meet the minimum requirements be aware that he has had numerous complaints filed with the State Patrol. One of my OFD coworkers recently attended his class. He stated they were basically given the answers to the written test, and the lecture consisted of nothing more than him BSing from his recliner for about 3 hrs. The shooting qual had them firing 10-20 rounds into a blank sheet of plywood. Most of the students didnt even draw from a holster. He related this to the State Patrol knowing full well that his permit may be revoked because he failed to meet the minimum requirements. But he was so disgusted with the instructor that he felt he had to.

- Shawn

[GreyGeek]

Any student I teach the CHP program to, will know everything they are expected to know, or will not pass the class.

If our public schools taught to that standard our kids wouldn't be graduating as near illiterates who can't do math or count money.

[unfy]

  Just read through this, I wasnt picking on you bro. Just see the stealth draw a lot in videos of shootings and its just one more presentation of the gun that we should practice. No more or less important.

Hehehehe, didn't mean to imply you were.  Was just pointing out the opinion of someone who knows better than I

[HuskerXDM]

If our public schools taught to that standard our kids wouldn't be graduating as near illiterates who can't do math or count money.

If quality parents would demand this, instead of letting the deadbeats run the show, schools would do this.

[GreyGeek]

If quality parents would demand this

Unfortunately, being an ex-teacher who has had many parent-teacher conferences, the only parents who came were those whose children were doing very well.  You couldn't get the parents of kids not doing well to come to a conference if you used a gun.  Even calling and asking for a time to meet them at home failed, they always had excuses as to why they couldn't make it.

[HuskerXDM]

Unfortunately, being an ex-teacher who has had many parent-teacher conferences, the only parents who came were those whose children were doing very well.  You couldn't get the parents of kids not doing well to come to a conference if you used a gun.  Even calling and asking for a time to meet them at home failed, they always had excuses as to why they couldn't make it.

I'm a teacher and it certainly hasn't changed much

[Chris C]

I fail to see humor in light of this person's misfortune.   It's also obvious that more people need to have respect for any weapon of any caliber....they're all deadly.

Sorry you feel that way.  First rule of firearm safety keep your finger off the trigger until you intend on firing the weapon. 

[OnTheFly]

I used to be a Tandem skydiving instructor, and I can certainly relate to what SFG is talking about. A mindset I found useful was to consider "How is this student going to try to kill me today?".  Meaning your awareness of the students abilities, physical condition, body language and state of mind are paramount when attempting to live to see another day.

Fly

[JTH]

I was going to ask the same question.  I didn't think there was anything you had to "take" to get certified as an instructor. We turned our application and materials in in January and are still waiting to hear from the NSP.

He may be talking about the NRA Basic Pistol Instructor certification, which is necessary to teach the CCW course.  It isn't all that is needed, but you do have to have that certification first, before you apply to the NSP with your curriculum to teach.

I'll note that the NRA Basic Pistol Course does not in ANY way give you the knowledge you need to teach the Nebraska CCW course.  (Well, a little about guns---but the CCW students should know that already.  And a little about teaching---but someone teaching a firearms class anywhere higher than a "basic" level should know a LOT more about teaching than that---and the CCW course is NOT a basic pistol class.)

I'm not sure why this needs to be treated as some secret requiring PMs, really.   Unless someone has a training class to add assistant instructors to their current firearms school for CCW, there isn't any such thing as a certification class specifically for teaching the CCW class in Nebraska.

[Gary]

Finger off the trigger is a goal towards firearms safety.  Problem is, as humans, we are wired to touch things we look at, to give a tactile explanation to the things we see with our eyes.   Ask someone about an old elbow injury, and the person will say that has not bothered him in years, while the person rubs his elbow. In nature, we shun the touch of things we learn first hand, hurt us, like fire, or the sharp end of a knife.  No young boy learns to be careful of a sharp knife, by verbal instruction only.  After a cut or two, the pain experience builds in the necessity to respect a sharp knife.    The trick in firearms training, is to build in an adverse action, consequence of touching the trigger, when no use of the firearm is indicated, without any first hand experience of that consequence.    The poor guy at BS over the weekend, felt the real consequence of touching the trigger, rather than applying theory only.    He is not the first, nor will he be the last.   I would hope no other student or instructor in Nebraska will ever have this happen to them.   

[unfy]

Problem is, as humans, we are wired to touch things we look at, to give a tactile explanation to the things we see with our eyes. 

Response:

It's a boyhood fantasy... I must have seen this ship hundreds of times in the Smithsonian but I was never able to touch it.

Sir, does tactile contact alter your perception of the Phoenix?

Oh, yes! For humans, touch can connect you to an object in a very personal way, make it seem more real.

I am detecting imperfections in the titanium casing... temperature variations in the fuel manifold... it is no more "real" to me now than it was a moment ago.

Would you three like to be alone?

[GreyGeek]

Finger off the trigger is a goal towards firearms safety.

A 9th grade remedial math class I taught was designed to give them experience in balancing a check book, computing monthly payments on an amortized loan (house  or car), add up a grocery bill and create a percentage breakdown in house hold expenses, etc....

Part of that was creating "married" couples who  had to share the work load of their assignments.  One in particular was carrying around a hard boiled egg that had my signature and a number on it (the number was visible in UV light -- sneaky, no?).  They were responsible for it 24 hrs a day for a week.  If they brought it back cracked then both received a D for that part of the class.  If they brought it back in pieces or lost it they both received an "F".  The whole purpose was to mimic in some small way the difficulties of caring for a baby.

That got me thinking.   What if a plastic model of a Glock were wired  up with attitude detectors connected to the trigger?   IF the finger was not in the index position while the gun was not level (not being aimed) it would send a mild shock to the handle.  A simple Mercury light switch, a capacitance pad, on-off switch , fine wire, a step up transformer hidden in the grip and a battery is all that is needed.

[sjwsti]

That got me thinking.   What if a plastic model of a Glock were wired  up with attitude detectors connected to the trigger?   IF the finger was not in the index position while the gun was not level (not being aimed) it would send a mild shock to the handle.  A simple Mercury light switch, a capacitance pad, on-off switch , fine wire, a step up transformer hidden in the grip and a battery is all that is needed.

A gun does not need to be level to be "aimed" or "sighted" (there is a difference).

Try doing some combative drills with your handgun, you end up firing in some very awkward positions. Gun aimed up, down and sideways. We have even worked firing the gun upsidedown  Try getting your safe-t block out doing that.

For anyone interested that technique came up by necessity a few times during ground fighting drills. Also during carjacking drills when the BG came in through the passenger door and we had to fight it out in the passenger compartment. Being right handed there was no way to get to the gun because the right hand was occupied defending and striking, it was quite easy to simply grab the gun with the left hand, drawing it upside down.

We worked this live fire, sometimes the gun would cycle properly, but what usually happened was the slide would strike the wrist giving you one shot. You would then have to TRB to get it back into action.

The first time I saw this was several years ago. I met a combat Vet who had lost part of his hand in an IED exposion . He had re learned to shoot his gun, holding it upside down, using his pinkey to work the trigger. He shot all day long like that. Actually out shooting many of the other students.

- Shawn