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Author Topic: Open Carry...*gasp*  (Read 14250 times)

Offline AAllen

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Re: Open Carry...*gasp*
« Reply #20 on: May 24, 2013, 09:07:23 AM »
I'm liking this friendly discussion on this topic.  As most would say I'm in the concealed is generally better group, but I also open carry at times.  Saying that it is not always appropriate, nor is concealed always convenient or even doable.

I do have strong feelings on the open carry protests, though with proper planning and goals they can be usefull.

Offline bkoenig

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Re: Open Carry...*gasp*
« Reply #21 on: May 24, 2013, 09:18:32 AM »
There's definitely a time and place for it.

I agree with Andy about the OC protests.  Done right, an event like a barbeque could be a great PR move.  Some of the more in your face protests are counterproductive, though.  Look what happened in California.

Offline MissMichella

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Re: Open Carry...*gasp*
« Reply #22 on: May 24, 2013, 09:26:12 AM »
Thanks for all the opinions and nice welcomes!

I've heard some of the horror stories about having your gun taken by a criminal.  I might be overestimating myself, but I tend to be pretty aware of my surroundings, and I hopefully would be able to avoid having my firearm yoinked.

I also think there's no way to know how many crimes were not committed due to the potential offender noticing someone was holding.  It's not like someone would call in a report on that...well...maybe.  Haha.

I suppose it's more of a grey area than I originally thought...pros and cons-wise.  I can see good points on both lines of thought.

Generally, when I open carry, I've just finished working and am usually dressed up.  Most people that have talked to me think that I'm some sort of law enforcement if anyone even notices I'm holding.  A pencil skirt and button up wouldn't hide my Glock well!  I haven't had anyone panic on me before, but we shall see.  I guess my intimidation factor is lacking.

Lmbass14, I've seen those bra holsters before!  Pretty neat.  I'd definitely have to get a smaller firearm...much smaller.  Haha. 

Good to know about Columbus...I'm tempted to call him up and clarify his issue with it.
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Offline MissMichella

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Re: Open Carry...*gasp*
« Reply #23 on: May 24, 2013, 09:29:49 AM »
I concur with the right time and place...plus the attitude when you're carrying.  A little common sense goes a long way.
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Offline Bucket

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Re: Open Carry...*gasp*
« Reply #24 on: May 24, 2013, 10:16:15 AM »
Hello Patriots.
I'm new here, so I'm not really in tune with the forum culture...but as I was skimming over the forum, I wondered why there appeared to be such a negative view on open carry?  I don't mean to open a can of worms...just curious.
FYI:  I open carry.  Not that I have a problem with CCW or anything.  I've never had a problem carrying my firearm visibly here in Lincoln, and I think it's really great as far as public awareness and education goes...but I'd like to gain a better understanding on why some feel so strongly about the subject. 
Welcome and good comments.  I just had a discussion this morning with a friend and fellow gun owner over coffee.  I salute you for being willing to open carry.  I just don't want the inevitable hassle that would occur if I decided to go about my daily business with an openly displayed sidearm.  I salute you for your willingness to do it, but I have no doubt that if I tried to run into the supermarket or Jimmy Johns for a sandwich, someone would be dialing 911 to report a man with a gun. 

Offline wusker

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Re: Open Carry...*gasp*
« Reply #25 on: May 24, 2013, 10:37:52 AM »
Welcome to the forums! Your mentality about your rights and your opening statement of "hello fellow patriots" gave me a nice grin. I did try to get a feel from the other members of the NFOA doing an open carry/pro-2a gathering, basically a barbecue and it was not received well. I am new to being a handgun owner and have still not received my CCW but I open carry quite often at my home and around my neighborhood, unfortunately my job stricly forbids us from carrying in company vehicles and on company property. I believe some of the issues with the whole open carry thing are from a lack of that being observed more regularly here locally.  From a tactical perspective most believe that CCW is more advatageous while I would have to agree to the tactical aspect as an open carry supporter the positives gained as far as education and the sheepdog mentality your portray as an open carrier are also very positive.
Once again welcome and great post!

Offline GreyGeek

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Re: Open Carry...*gasp*
« Reply #26 on: May 24, 2013, 11:39:30 AM »
Most people that have talked to me think that I'm some sort of law enforcement

I believe that most people would be willing to  overlook or ignore a woman carrying open than a man, because women are considered to be violent people, and "everyone knows" that men  have too much testosterone. 

BTW, there's enough progesterone in animal products today  that many men could use the Flashbang to  conceal their weapon!   :laugh:  :laugh: :o

Welcome to the forum.  It's  a fun place with LOTS of good info.   

I'm in the "keep it concealed" crowd.  Carrying open gives away the greatest advantage you have:  surprise.  If you walk by someone who noticed your weapon and they decide to take it you'll be hit in the jaw  with a blindside punch that would ring your bell or put your lights out.  Or, they'd use a club or knucks or a brick, or what ever.  The  force of the blow could be enough to cause brain damage.

There are many, many cases of guns being taken away from LEOs and used against them or other citizens.
http://www.policeone.com/close-quarters-combat/articles/100228-Cases-of-Officers-Killed-by-Their-Own-Guns-Likely-Will-Not-Change-R-I-Policies/

Then, there is this joke headline, after it was revealed that the NY gun laws forbid law officers from carrying guns:
http://weeklyworldnews.com/headlines/54119/nypd-takes-guns-away-from-officers/

« Last Edit: May 24, 2013, 12:10:14 PM by GreyGeek »

Offline MissMichella

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Re: Open Carry...*gasp*
« Reply #27 on: May 24, 2013, 02:05:51 PM »
BTW, there's enough progesterone in animal products today  that many men could use the Flashbang to  conceal their weapon!   :laugh:  :laugh: :o
That must be my problem...I'm a flexitarian, so I suppose I'll have to gut a few more NE steaks before I can use the Flashbang...bahaha.

I'm sure you guys are right, females probably are hassled less when open carrying...and no one wants to be hassled while out and about.  I guess as of now I'd rather open carry for several reasons.  First, because I don't really want the element of surprise after a crime has already started happening.  I'd rather deter a crime before it happens.  I prefer not having to use my weapon against another human being, and if I concealed it I feel like it would be more likely I'd have to because the criminal wouldn't know I had that sort of ability to defend myself.  If something happened someday where I would need to draw my firearm, then I would want the quickest possible access to my gun.  For me personally, to conceal my gun would be kind of difficult, and prevent easy access.  Lastly, each time I've had interactions with people while OC, I'm able to show them that I'm a good responsible person who happens to legally carry a weapon.  I think it makes most people more comfortable since so many negative connotations are associated with firearms.

I do still think there's a time and place for everything...and I'm not going to be an ass because it's my legal right... :)  I probably won't OC to the toddler church programs my kid likes to go to.
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Offline GreyGeek

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Re: Open Carry...*gasp*
« Reply #28 on: May 24, 2013, 08:13:34 PM »
If something happened someday where I would need to draw my firearm, then I would want the quickest possible access to my gun. 

Here's a suggestion:  get your  CHP and carry a small concealed weapon in  your  Flashbang and pack your open carry too.   You'll have both kinds of deterents:  you are obviously armed, but if someone happens to engage you before you can draw it they won't be suspecting your ace in the hole.

Offline 2guns

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Re: Open Carry...*gasp*
« Reply #29 on: May 27, 2013, 02:13:55 AM »
I have open carried for several years, so you are not alone I just leave it locked in the truck if I go somewhere people would freak. Always have one holstered between the seat and console of my truck. I have had one cop that I have had an issue with and that story is in this section (stopped by state patrol) we need more people to open carry! To get it normalized so as not to freak people out. As far as being a target well you better go buy a lotto ticket about the same odds. And the you tube clip of the by who's gun was taken is like the CC classroom project by ABC all made up and fake (IMO)
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Offline GreyGeek

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Re: Open Carry...*gasp*
« Reply #30 on: May 27, 2013, 08:28:33 AM »
the CC classroom project by ABC all made up and fake

Staged for sure.  Flying into the face of proven facts by lying, they ignored the 1 to 2 million defensive uses of guns each year.   You will rarely see one of these stories in the MNM unless it can be twisted to fit their anti-2nd Amendment agenda.   

Here are two on the defensive use of guns:
http://www.reddit.com/r/dgu
http://www.learnaboutguns.com/2009/01/30/examples-of-armed-self-defense/

and one chronicling home invasions:
http://www.reddit.com/r/homeinvasion





Offline JTH

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Re: Open Carry...*gasp*
« Reply #31 on: May 27, 2013, 02:02:24 PM »
I'm sure you guys are right, females probably are hassled less when open carrying...and no one wants to be hassled while out and about.  I guess as of now I'd rather open carry for several reasons.  First, because I don't really want the element of surprise after a crime has already started happening.  I'd rather deter a crime before it happens.  I prefer not having to use my weapon against another human being, and if I concealed it I feel like it would be more likely I'd have to because the criminal wouldn't know I had that sort of ability to defend myself.  If something happened someday where I would need to draw my firearm, then I would want the quickest possible access to my gun.  For me personally, to conceal my gun would be kind of difficult, and prevent easy access.  Lastly, each time I've had interactions with people while OC, I'm able to show them that I'm a good responsible person who happens to legally carry a weapon.  I think it makes most people more comfortable since so many negative connotations are associated with firearms.

Just a couple of things to think about, since you asked for opinions...  :)

1) I have yet to see any reliable research data showing that criminals are deterred by open carry.  I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but unlike the fact that there is research showing that criminals are deterred by areas with potentially large number of concealed carry folks, I haven't seen any showing that criminals (upon seeing open carry) are deterred.  I have, however, read a number of specific cases (note:  those count as anecdotes, not evidence) in which open carry folks were specifically targeted for their guns.

So:  I personally have ever seen any research on any particular deterrence effect of open carry.  Do you know of some?

2) If someone decides to indeed commit a crime and they see you open-carrying, you are now a priority target for serious attack, as they have to make certain that you are unable to respond.  This can be done in several ways:  A) make you unable to do anything through direct attack, or B) take your weapon.

Which brings up the question:  As someone open-carrying, are you using a retention holster that will actually keep the gun under a determined grab attempt?  Preferably one in which the retention release cannot be easily activated by the attacker?  (In my opinion, anyone who is open carrying should be using a holster with active retention, and also in my personal opinion, it should be similar in type to the Safariland ALS system, and NOT a SERPA holster.)

If you are open-carrying, you have to have a heightened awareness of people around you and their relative distances---because if you ARE going to be attacked, it will be at a significantly higher level than if you weren't open carrying.  (And you also have practiced empty-hand defensive techniques, to stop people at close-range long enough to access your handgun, yes?  While keeping them from obtaining your handgun?)

3) Concealment and access----it is certainly true that open carry is faster than concealed carry.  HOWEVER, that being said, the difference really should be quite small.  It possibly be even equivalent, if the person doesn't practice much with their retention holster.  Active retention is slightly slower than passive retention, and an open-but active holster just isn't going to be that much different in speed than a concealed-but-passive holster.  Again, that's just my opinion, but my speed from an open competition holster averages at 1.0 second to an A hit at 7 yards, and my speed from an Archangel AIWB concealed holster averages about 1.4. Half a second can be a long time, true---but I know that my speed from a standard belt holster with ALS (suitable for open carry) is NOT 1.0 seconds.

Also with regard to concealment---I think you might be surprised at what you can conceal comfortably.  A young lady of my acquaintance conceals a G19 for most of the year (and no, she isn't large) without resorting to tent clothing, and when it is extremely hot, she moves to a Kahr K-9.  Another female friend of mine carries a G26 all year with no issues.  In neither case do they have to go with baggy clothing to hide their firearms, and in both cases they comfortably carry all the time.

For most people, CCW is a function of finding the right holster/carry method combination.  I know a LOT of people who conceal a tiny, tiny handgun because they say anything larger just won't conceal---and yet after trying a couple of different methods, have changed their mind.

I and my wife even offer a class in CCW where we pour out a bucket of different holster types so that people can try different methods.  :)

Anyway---I think you'd be surprised what you can conceal.

4) I'm glad that OC has worked well for you in terms of positive interactions with people.  As others have said, I'm sure that being female has actually made a difference in that, and if you have been able to shed a positive light on firearms and carry, that's excellent!

As many people have said here---most people do not find that to be the normal reaction, particularly in cities.  (In rural areas, tends to be different.)  If OC-ing in Omaha, most people would end up having time-consuming discussions with local police officers, including potentially be proned out and handcuffed during said discussions.  (I wish I was exaggerating, but that comes directly from the OPD facebook page awhile ago, in which they admitted that given a call that someone was walking done the street with a holstered firearm, they would respond and potentially prone out, disarm, and cuff the person until they could establish that said person was legal.  Which is interesting, because walking down the street with a firearm openly carried is completely legal, and when that was pointed out to them, they said "for the officer's safety, this may potentially occur.")

It would indeed be nice if people understood that OC is legal, and nothing to be particularly worried about, and indeed, the more it occurs, the more people might eventually come to relax about it.  That being said, as people have pointed out, a number of people OC to make a scene and "make a point" which rather hurts the cause instead.

I personally have nothing against OC-ing.  That being said, I'd never by choice OC in a place in which people not my close friends would see, or which was not on land owned by myself.    In my opinion, I don't want criminals to know I'm carrying (both for the element of surprise, and also because I don't wish to be a priority target), and I simply don't have time for the hassle if some idiot calls the cops who respond to a "man with a gun!" call without further explanation.

If it is working for you---then go with it!  However, from a self-defense perspective, be careful that you don't mistake "it hasn't happened to me" with "it won't happen to me because I have a gun."

YMMV, of course.  :)
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Offline just_me_mongo

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Re: Open Carry...*gasp*
« Reply #32 on: May 30, 2013, 10:54:40 AM »
I would OC more often if I did not live in Omaha.  I see many "gung-ho" officers in this town.  I have even been harassed by some for a simple traffic stop. 

I personally would open carry in smaller/rural areas.  My number one reason for not open carrying is the Omaha Police Dept. & that  there is a city ordinance that prohibits open carry. 

I understand that those with a CHP are allowed to open carry but I wouldn't bother risking it.
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Offline NENick

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Re: Open Carry...*gasp*
« Reply #33 on: May 30, 2013, 11:13:15 AM »
I like to open carry in Omaha when:

* I'm traveling from my residence to visit friends, family or the gun store.
* It's evening/night

I'm not as likely to run into a crowd of people that will be frightened. It's easy to obstruct the view of the firearm when only crossing paths with one or two people. I'm always in a heightened sense of awareness at night when I'm out and about, so having my pistol more accessible is nice.

Offline David Hineline

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Re: Open Carry...*gasp*
« Reply #34 on: May 31, 2013, 02:42:03 AM »
As to deter crime, one person open carry makes you the person they eliminate first, it makes you a suspect with the general public and the police.  20 people open cary is a visual deterrent.
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Offline MissMichella

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Re: Open Carry...*gasp*
« Reply #35 on: June 04, 2013, 12:08:44 PM »
I really appreciate everyone's replies, opinions, and experiences.  I'm kind of a nerd about information collecting when I get stuck on a topic...and the first-hand stuff is fantastic.  I was super motivated last night and blogged about it.  www.thesnarkyowl.blogspot.com :)

Overall, whether someone conceals or open carries, I'm just glad that there are responsible people doing it.  Levels the playing field, right?

Just a couple of things to think about, since you asked for opinions...  :)

1) I have yet to see any reliable research data showing that criminals are deterred by open carry.  I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but unlike the fact that there is research showing that criminals are deterred by areas with potentially large number of concealed carry folks, I haven't seen any showing that criminals (upon seeing open carry) are deterred.  I have, however, read a number of specific cases (note:  those count as anecdotes, not evidence) in which open carry folks were specifically targeted for their guns.

So:  I personally have ever seen any research on any particular deterrence effect of open carry.  Do you know of some?

I like opinions!  I could be wrong, but I have a theory on the lack of data showing criminals are deterred by someone open carrying.  The data and focus group of this kind of statistical analysis would be difficult to identify and obtain.  I highly doubt that a potential offender would report out that they were going to commit a violent crime but chose not to due to seeing someone open carrying.  However, from my interactions with a more...ahem...unsavory sort of people, I do know that most of them have a plan set in place before they set out to commit a crime.  When there is someone present who is armed, it adds a variable, and most of them wish to carry out their crime without having to factor in that sort of variable.  I'm not naive enough to think that there aren't exceptions, but I OC for the most likely situation I might face.  I think most potential criminals will choose the easiest target, and with OC, it's clear that I am not.  I haven't heard many stories of open carriers being the first to be targeted, but I concur that it could be possible...but not highly likely unless the planned crime was murder.  I assume the risk of a murder charge and manhunt would dissuade most criminals who were only planning a robbery or mugging.

You make a lot of great points though.  I will have to look into other holster options...mine is not active retention.  I own a Glock 19 Gen4...and I have no idea how I would be able to conceal it without putting it in my purse or waddling around with it strapped to my leg.  I do have a heightened awareness about people, situations, and space when I carry, though I think most females do even when they aren't!  Can't be too careful about the creepers.  Haha! 

I understand the problem open carrying in Omaha.  I work with law enforcement frequently, and I've had some discussions about the city ordinance issue.  A lot of the more seasoned officers say that they don't generally stop people who are open carrying because even if they don't have their CHP, the charges usually fall through in court, but that's all hearsay, and I wouldn't risk it.

I think open carry should be done respectfully and responsibly...definitely in a subtle way.  It bothers me when people OC to make a scene or have a huge attitude about it because it sheds a negative light on all of us.  I OC mostly in Lincoln, though I have in some of the smaller communities in Nebraska and Missouri as well.  So far I haven't run into any huge negative reactions, but only time will tell.  I recently noticed that when I OC, I unconsciously smile at people more...no more frowning in line at the grocery store!

One last thing...yes, I'm long-winded...A lot of you mentioned the element of surprise that CC gives.  I don't see surprise as a defensive tactic.  It seems to be more of an offensive move.  Honestly, the last thing I would ever want to do is use my weapon on another human being. For that reason, I do not want surprise on my side after a crime is in progress, I'd rather stop it from happening in the first place.  If the knowledge that I am armed and aware doesn't deter a criminal from acting, then I have already lost. The only thing I can do at that point is mitigate further harm and end the encounter as swiftly as possible.  That's why I want quick and unobstructed access to my firearm.  That all being said...I have no problem with those who choose to CC.  I think the best option is whatever you are most comfortable with.

« Last Edit: June 13, 2013, 02:47:23 PM by MissMichella »
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Offline unfy

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Re: Open Carry...*gasp*
« Reply #36 on: June 04, 2013, 02:16:50 PM »
One last thing...yes, I'm long-winded...A lot of you mentioned the element of surprise that CC gives.  I don't see surprise as a defensive tactic.  It seems to be more of an offensive move.

The surprise is in bringing your firearm into action against a hopefully flat footed assailant - thus saving your life (or family's, etc). 

ie:

They've made their intent clear.

You have been dismissed as not being a threat / providing resistance.

You draw your weapon and defend yourself, thus the surprise.

Another way of thinking about it - a counter punch when not expected, or in military terms, a surprise / flaked counter attack.

.... not so much as a 'PEKE AH BUH I R FIGYLANDY!' hehe :)
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Offline Mudinyeri

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Re: Open Carry...*gasp*
« Reply #37 on: June 04, 2013, 02:53:30 PM »
Nice civil discussion of a sometimes divisive topic.

Michelle, here's a video of a fairly slender woman in fairly form-fitting clothing carrying concealed in a CrossBreed SuperTuck (my IWB holster of choice):

In my opinion, if that young lady can carry concealed in those jeans under that "blouse" ... pretty much anyone can carry concealed.

Personally, I mostly carry concealed but occasionally open carry when I feel the circumstances are right, e.g. hunting, hiking, working on the farm, etc. (typically relatively unpopulated areas).  Open carrying in a populated area without a retention holster would definitely make me nervous.  Then again, I'm kind of a "nervous" person to begin with.  I tend to be a little jumpy with my head on a swivel.  I'd rate my situational awareness about 100X the average individual - maybe more.


Offline MissMichella

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Re: Open Carry...*gasp*
« Reply #38 on: June 04, 2013, 03:10:39 PM »
Okay...did a little checking because I realized I didn't quite know what active vs. passive retention entailed.  Apparently I do carry in an active retention holster (at least according to what I googled).  Now I know, and knowing is half the battle.
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Offline Bucket

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Re: Open Carry...*gasp*
« Reply #39 on: June 04, 2013, 03:12:03 PM »
The surprise is in bringing your firearm into action against a hopefully flat footed assailant - thus saving your life (or family's, etc). 

ie:

They've made their intent clear.

You have been dismissed as not being a threat / providing resistance.

You draw your weapon and defend yourself, thus the surprise.

Another way of thinking about it - a counter punch when not expected, or in military terms, a surprise / flaked counter attack.

.... not so much as a 'PEKE AH BUH I R FIGYLANDY!' hehe :)

Putting things into military terms, there is clearly a school of thought that promotes OC.  While CC can obviously be equated to the ability for a surprise counterattack, OC can serve as a deterrent.  I think that's the point Michella is making when she points out that no stats exist to estimate the number of acts by BG's were put off by the presence of a firearm.

It's often referred to as the paradox of deterrence.  "We spent all this money on xxx (weapons, guards, surveillance, etc) and we've never had an incident so maybe we don't need all that stuff!"  In fact, it may be the presence of all the stuff that deterred the BG from acting.  Ultimately we'll never know.

For me, open carry brings the risks of hassle that I don't want.  I find that sad for a right enshrined in our Bill of Rights, but I also don't have the motivation to be a martyr for the cause.   None the less, if OC gives someone peace of mind, then go for it.  I find compelling arguments for either method.