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Author Topic: Social Greeting  (Read 8894 times)

Offline ProtoPatriot

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Re: Social Greeting
« Reply #20 on: July 19, 2013, 05:58:45 PM »
There is never a strange time for BBQ.

I guess, I just don't think of breakfast type items when I think "BBQ" ...I think dinner.

There is also no time for alcohol and firearms to be in the same place. I think you will find these statements to be widely accepted here.:)

Now that, however, depends on the individual person and their individual level of responsibility...there is no such thing as universals...things must be dealt with on individual to individual basis. After all, each individual is responsible for their actions alone, no one else is and to that, ONLY the individual that commits the harmful actions should suffer any form of consequences (there is no harm in drinking and having firearms or other weapons, the only harm is when that person uses them on another person or damages property of another).

Never should a law/standard be put in place in order to create a breaking of the law to create a perceived problem. We need to stop trying to prevent things so much, it doesn't work and only infringes on the freedom of those that did nothing.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2013, 06:07:46 PM by ProtoPatriot »
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Offline AWick

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Re: Social Greeting
« Reply #21 on: July 19, 2013, 07:01:00 PM »
Well I would venture to guess that a lot of films here have their CHP and carry, and it just so happens that the limit for alcohol in your system while carrying is 0.000... period. So we can have an unarmed gathering and bbq and booze it up  or we can stay armed and forego the booze. Or mix and match and abstain if you wish to stay armed.

Just what the gun haters want is to have a gun and booze bust during a social gathering of this fine organization...
"Well-regulated" meant well equipped, trained and disciplined... not controlled with an iron fist.

Offline ProtoPatriot

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Re: Social Greeting
« Reply #22 on: July 19, 2013, 07:14:40 PM »
Well I would venture to guess that a lot of films here have their CHP and carry, and it just so happens that the limit for alcohol in your system while carrying is 0.000... period. So we can have an unarmed gathering and bbq and booze it up  or we can stay armed and forego the booze. Or mix and match and abstain if you wish to stay armed.

Just what the gun haters want is to have a gun and booze bust during a social gathering of this fine organization...

So lets perpetuate the punishing of those that have done no wrong because someone else has?

I understand what the law says and society's view, but they are both wrong.
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Offline AWick

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Re: Social Greeting
« Reply #23 on: July 19, 2013, 07:38:35 PM »
So lets perpetuate the punishing of those that have done no wrong because someone else has?

I understand what the law says and society's view, but they are both wrong.


I can understand your differing philosophies for individualism vs collectivism and I understand the value and benefit of both. However, we don't live in absolutes and we never will. We will always be a country rooted in both of those in a combined state... "WE" the people; right of the "people" to keep and bear arms; so on and so on. Our framers were very collective in their wordings to galvanize our nation and our shared individual freedoms.

That being said, a DUI citation doesn't exist just to punish drunk drivers that haven't killed anyone. It exists to keep people from driving drunk to prevent the very real elevated statistics of death because of that behavior. If you are a pure individualist philosophically, then you simply can not ever state, express, or rely on any stereotype in a form. Stereotyping in societies is collectivist grouping based on real or perceived increases in frequency.

The real or perceived stereotype of a bunch of drunk hill billies out in KneeBrasky tottin around guns is pure (canon) fodder for our opponents.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2013, 08:28:53 PM by Awick »
"Well-regulated" meant well equipped, trained and disciplined... not controlled with an iron fist.

Offline AWick

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Re: Social Greeting
« Reply #24 on: July 19, 2013, 07:48:30 PM »
I gave the DUI as the example because it is a much more common example of a comparable "impaired" person with a weapon (vehicle) and another "impared" person with weapon (CCW). In both cases in order to receive a license, we freely submitted to a set of rules by which to use those objects. I know, I know... the constitution is our permit to carry (bear), but we got the licenses anyways for a reason.
"Well-regulated" meant well equipped, trained and disciplined... not controlled with an iron fist.

Offline gsd

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Re: Social Greeting
« Reply #25 on: July 19, 2013, 09:59:33 PM »
I guess my view was that if there is alcohol around and I am armed, ill find somewhere else to be.
It is highly likely the above post may offend you. I'm fine with that.

Offline ProtoPatriot

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Re: Social Greeting
« Reply #26 on: July 19, 2013, 10:02:32 PM »
Collective to a point, but based on principles of individualism. Voluntarism, not forced by society/government through laws. You can't regulate responsibility, accountability, morality, ethics, etc....it is a literal impossibility and morally wrong.

The framers recognized we had to work together, but not at the expense of individual freedom.

Politics is dead. We have lost that battle. If it was 50-60 years ago...or even just 30 years ago, we may still have had a chance to fix things peacefully...but that time has come and gone...things can no longer be fixed from within the system.


Driving drunk is not the problem, the assault or murder should one actually occur is. There is no harm in the act of driving drunk. Until harm is done, then there is no problem. So until that accident involving another person occurs, no harm has occurred thus no problem (if no other person or other persons property is involved, there is no harm done as you cannot victimize/harm yourself). Same thing applies to things like speeding, there is no harm in speeding. Speeding does not cause accidents. The person not driving according to the conditions and their skills caused the accident, their bad decision caused the accident. The harm that is occurring is the accident, should it occur. Until that occurs, no crime has been committed as no harm has been done.

No licenses, they have no legitimacy and do more harm than good, same for things like background checks or prohibitions. Trying to prevent things from happening will never work (preventing life from happening is not the way to go about things), nor is it a good thing to do... in fact infringing on the rights of those that have done no harm is worse than any crime including murder (infringement is anything that restricts, limits, prohibits, prevents, hinders, etc.).

Things like background checks, permits, prohibitions, etc. forces people to disclose information about themselves (4th amendment violation) and ask permission to exercise their rights (general human rights violation).

Trying to keep so called "felons"/"criminals" from owning weapons is not the correct course and is vile to freedom...largely because, what felon/criminal? Once a person has been convicted of a crime, they are sentenced. Once released from incarceration upon completion of their allotted sentence, they return to being completely free and all rights reinstated. They have finished the punishment levied, it does not continue after incarceration.

Say you have 2 kids, kid A hits kid B (assault, crime has occurred). You punish (sentence) kid A to 1 week grounding to their room with no technology/toys/etc. Once that week is over, do you continue punishing kid A for hitting kid B for the rest of kid A's life? No, nor would it be right for you or anyone to do so. The same applies when dealing with all crimes in society at large (the family is a small form of society).

If a person can never be trusted around other people again, then the only permanent solution is to execute them. But if they are released to be among the rest of the people, they return to innocent and have full rights.

Things must be voluntary, based on the individual and individual situation per each individual interaction with other individuals.

Such laws are mere erosions of freedom and pushes us closer to dictatorship and slavery.

I do not negotiate nor bargain with my rights, nor do I give them up for anything. Death is preferred to not having freedom.

"Those that deny freedom to others, deserve it not for themselves."

"Those that would give up a little freedom/liberty for a little safety/security, deserve and will have neither."

Life and freedom are full of risks that must be accepted if you wish keep them.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2013, 10:05:10 PM by ProtoPatriot »
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Offline ProtoPatriot

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Re: Social Greeting
« Reply #27 on: July 19, 2013, 10:24:03 PM »
There are only a select few true crimes out there... all other's have no real place as they are largely dependent on the views and desires of those involved.

- Murder (manslaughter, negligent murder, etc...any form of aggressively taking another person's life without provocation)
- Theft (robbery, burglary, etc...any form of taking someone's property without permission/compensation)
- Assault/Rape/vandalism/intruding (these are together because if you rape someone, you are assaulting them and if you damage/destroy another person's property you are assaulting their property and in turn them indirectly) - (you cause a car accident, you are assaulting/vandalizing someone and their property...assault is the crime being committed)

These 3 cover all other "so called" crimes. We don't need and should not have multiple laws covering the same thing.

A simple law saying "Don't murder or you will be...." ... clear, cut, and direct to the point and in plain english. It doesn't matter how the crime is done either. There is no difference in shooting, stabbing, choking, bludgeoning, etc. someone to death and should all carry the same weight and be seen the same when it comes to applying the law... one is not worse than the other.

And no self-defense is not murder. Murder is an aggressive act. Self-defense killing is a passive-reactive act (non-aggression principle).

And when it comes to certain things, it is more dangerous to have even a single law, than it is to have no laws.

Not one law restricting freedom has ever stopped/prevented a crime.

http://nebraskafirearms.org/forum/index.php/topic,9033.0.html
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Offline Dan W

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Re: Social Greeting
« Reply #28 on: July 19, 2013, 10:51:31 PM »
I guess my view was that if there is alcohol around and I am armed, ill find somewhere else to be.

Me too
Dan W    NFOA Co Founder
Today, we need a nation of Minutemen, citizens who are not only prepared to take arms, but citizens who regard the preservation of freedom as the basic purpose of their daily life and who are willing to consciously work and sacrifice for that freedom.   J. F. K.

Offline greg58

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Re: Social Greeting
« Reply #29 on: July 20, 2013, 08:24:11 AM »
I guess my view was that if there is alcohol around and I am armed, ill find somewhere else to be.

Me Three.
It is always a struggle in my mind when I would like to go out to eat with my handgun, and I would also like to enjoy a cocktail.
But in my mind the 2 never mix.

Greg58
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Offline ProtoPatriot

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Re: Social Greeting
« Reply #30 on: July 20, 2013, 09:17:24 AM »
Answer this: If it wasn't for the absolute bias in society from people that want to dictate and control everyone....the indoctrination that has occurred over the last 100+ years...

Would you still think that mixing the 2 cannot be done responsibly?

Everyone is to be judged according to their actions and theirs alone, not the actions of others.

Frequency is meaningless.

It's sad how people have grown to fear freedom...

Judging someone before they as an individual has done harm is abhorrent to being free.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2013, 09:45:17 AM by ProtoPatriot »
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Offline NE Bull

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Re: Social Greeting
« Reply #31 on: July 20, 2013, 09:58:27 AM »
      Well, ProtoPatriot, now that you have gotten all that off your chest.... ;)
Let me start by saying, and I think I speak for a majority here, You are certainly preaching to the choir. Most of us feel the same way, The gubmit is encroaching on our Lives, Liberties and our pursuit of OUR Happiness, more and more everyday. (I just got done with Atlas Shrugged (homework given by Farmer Rick ;) )and it scares the beejeezus outta me how close we are to such a situation)
    I believe it is absolutely none of the government's business what I do in my personal life.  I am also, though, a strong supporter of the idea that my rights end where another person's rights begin and vice versa - a very blurry, yet fine line. 
    You write with the passion of a person that sees the onslaught coming and understands the need to do something, which most of agree. 
    But returning to the original subject of this thread, you have to understand, that we also have a certain level of decorum we must uphold as a Legislative Lobbying organization.  It has taken the original nine, and the too few others, since, that have set aside our Social Lives, Family time, Personal/Family finances, hell, even the all precious Range Time, in pursuing more common sense legislation within this state and fighting those laws that encroach upon our freedoms. 
    Many hours- nay years- have been spent rubbing elbows with legislators, convincing them that we are not the stereotypical "bunch of drunken cowboys, blasting any yellow belly cheat that crosses our path", but instead, the quiet, well trained, everyday person that is simply looking to carry a firearm for defense of self or loved ones, that there would not be 'blood running in the streets'.   CCW in Nebraska took no less than 3-4 years, and we are still working to get self defense laws cleaned up.  It all takes time.
    Why the zero tolerance for alcohol?  As my instructor explained it- Nebraska has a drinking problem, and no other law has stopped it, so this is just one more attempt at curbing alcohol abuse in this state.  (back to the stereotype of gun owners again)
    I think what you will find with folks not wanting to include alcohol with a BBQ, are mostly those that have been around a while and know how far we have come and yet all the work that lies ahead.   They are concerned with the public opinion and media outcry and the resulting loss of credibility with our fine Senators, should someone get stupid and do something stupid (which, sadly, alcohol is usually a precursor to) while attending a NFOA gathering, while sporting their NFOA gear and especially if openly carrying a scary looking firearm.   We  just can't risk it, no matter our personal views on individual freedom and responsibility.  So please do not take any of it personally, these folks are not only looking out for themselves, but also the best interest of the Association.     

    All that aside, If ya'll want to have a NFOA Members picnic (outside of the annual meeting) I am all for it!  I say lets us get together as much as possible, off the internet, in person, and not on the firing range.  Bring the family, and let's all have a good ol' time.  Lord knows, I love me some BBQ, and I make a killer mess of beans and my Camp Cobblers have been known to ruin many a diet.  I envision a Family affair, with a grill or two burning up some burgers and dogs, a smoker turning out some yummy goodness, Mama's "world famous" 'tater salad/ coleslaw/ deviled eggs, plenty of sweet and sticky sauce, and gallons of fresh brewed Sweet Iced Tea.   With the younguns running around playing kids games (and NOT on the cell phones or games systems!!!) , some simple picnic in the park games and of course, a hardcore horseshoes tournament.  Of course, there will also be the required Glock vs. 1911 and/or  .45 vs. 9mm arguments; no gathering of gun nuts is complete with them.

    I'm even seeing this as a chance to invite some of our Allies in Government, and their families out for a good time and good food, in a non-work related atmosphere. And should some Foe or reporter happen by, they will see a group of law abiding gun owning, citizens having a peaceful outing in the park. 


« Last Edit: July 20, 2013, 01:04:20 PM by NE Bull »
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Offline ProtoPatriot

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Re: Social Greeting
« Reply #32 on: July 20, 2013, 07:33:37 PM »
I believe it is absolutely none of the government's business what I do in my personal life.  I am also, though, a strong supporter of the idea that my rights end where another person's rights begin and vice versa - a very blurry, yet fine line. 

Yes, this is absolutely true. But this cannot be regulated as the line changes per interaction with each individual pair of individuals. It must be left to individual choice and voluntary.

Society and Government can ONLY do things through force. Only the individual has the capability to do things voluntarily.


Now, let me state this (as we did get off topic)...I said no where that I would be drinking (but yes, if I go out to eat I am armed - as always - and yes, sometimes I will have 1 or 2 max, that is me choosing to maintain control of myself and be responsible, while doing both. There is absolutely NO reason to drink so much one will become drunk for any purpose, but those that do must be dealt with at the time they cause harm, not before because up until that point, nothing wrong has happened. Making regulation for the sake of creating a problem will only do more harm.), but it is not my right to say someone else cannot as that would infringe on their rights.

Again, drinking is not the problem, just as any weapon is not the problem.

The problem is the same with everything else....people blame everyone else, the laws, etc. and not the individual that actual made the choice. No more is the individual being held accountable and responsible for anything. But again, you can't regulate those things, they must be taught from early age (for instance: today, people think it is so bad that a 6 or 8 year kid is put to work either at a store, a farm, or even at home when in reality it is a very good thing), we can only punish for the choices they make.

Kids are given no responsibilities today. By the time they are 4 they should be cleaning up after themselves to a point (sure it will take some prodding, but that is called parenting), by age 6 a kid should be able to begin to fix their own food, by age 8 a kid should be able to wash their own clothing, etc....of course give or take 1-2 years per the individuals development speed. Kids, and even adults, should not be sitting in front of computers or TVs for very long at all.  Human beings belong outside, not indoors. Not sitting, Not behind a desk. This is according to human nature and physiology.

The problem is the lack of family hierarchy strength. The problem is other people getting involved in the individuals life. (yes, this was a series of problems, but they all link back to one thing: responsibility/accountability from the first step of life).

I think what you will find with folks not wanting to include alcohol with a BBQ, are mostly those that have been around a while and know how far we have come and yet all the work that lies ahead.   They are concerned with the public opinion and media outcry and the resulting loss of credibility with our fine Senators, should someone get stupid and do something stupid (which, sadly, alcohol is usually a precursor to) while attending a NFOA gathering, while sporting their NFOA gear and especially if openly carrying a scary looking firearm.   We  just can't risk it, no matter our personal views on individual freedom and responsibility.  So please do not take any of it personally, these folks are not only looking out for themselves, but also the best interest of the Association. 

When I first thought of this BBQ idea, it was (as stated) non-political... I did not mean that it would NFOA sponsored. Just because the people at the event are largely members and such, means nothing.

Nor did I say that we would/have to be displaying NFOA banners or such. Now of course, if we wanted to, we would have to come to a consensus (which I knew well before we even started talking what that decision would be) as it would be representing an organization of multiple people, each gets a say and a single vote.

common sense legislation within this state and fighting those laws that encroach upon our freedoms.

The ONLY"common sense legislation" or "reasonable legislation" when it comes to rights is protecting them further, which requires restricting the group and government from touching the individual. Otherwise, there is no such thing.

Again, the group, government, organization, business has no rights....all rights are held by the individual only.

No compromises, no negotiations, no bargaining when it comes to rights. Again, it's more dangerous to have even one-single law, than it is to have no laws at all when it comes to rights.

The whole purpose of the idea about a BBQ was purely fun. Non-political, no sociological...kind of to forget just for a few hours of the problems out there.



Now as for politics itself....they are dead, there is no coming back from where we are politically, sociologically, or economically. The nation is bankrupt. Every single individual is bankrupt and they don't even realize it. It is people's very life that is the currency and our dictators/oligarchy have sold us.

The last 2 elections (actually, the last 50 years) have shown where things lay ....and no people are not changing for the better.

The whole reason for the gold standard was to restrict government further and have something of true value backing the money...not just a mere promise. The oligarchy we call government has changed our Constitution from bindings on government to bindings on the people....and the people did nothing.

Frankly, people need to remember what it is like to be under a dictatorship again, so they can realize why socialistic ideals are bad and why our fore-fathers fought a bloody revolution for our INDIVIDUAL freedoms in the first place (not the freedoms of the group, but the freedoms held by the individual). So at this point, I say let it come.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2013, 07:43:15 PM by ProtoPatriot »
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Offline AWick

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Re: Social Greeting
« Reply #33 on: July 20, 2013, 08:59:35 PM »
Enough of this "laws don't deter crime" crap. 1982 almost 22,000 deaths by DUI and in 2008 there was 11,000... obviously with the number of drivers increasing and the deaths cut in half it is completely impossible to attribute that halving the death count to DUI to only car safety improvements...

If murder, assault, and theft were the only crimes that we needed to punish people for (punishment to prevent those maybe)  and there was absolutely no benefit to a hybrid of a social (not socialism) collective with individual freedoms then we wouldn't have a freakin constitution... the founders would have said screw it, we don't need a constitution, we only need three laws. Obviously that isn't the case. I think they got it right...

Your philosophy is ungrounded in any sense of reality. Pure individualism is basically pure anarchy and we have the distinct pleasure of living in a structured government that though it has seen better days, still places us with the greatest opportunity for life liberty and the pursuit of happiness that has ever existed on this planet.
"Well-regulated" meant well equipped, trained and disciplined... not controlled with an iron fist.

Offline ProtoPatriot

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Re: Social Greeting
« Reply #34 on: July 20, 2013, 09:17:55 PM »
Enough of this "laws don't deter crime" crap. 1982 almost 22,000 deaths by DUI and in 2008 there was 11,000... obviously with the number of drivers increasing and the deaths cut in half it is completely impossible to attribute that halving the death count to DUI to only car safety improvements...

The law had nothing to do with that. It's people taking responsibility and having things like taxi's, designated drivers, etc. ...Education has lowered the numbers, not the law.

People aren't making these decisions because of the law, it's because it's in their best interest to make such decisions as getting a designated driver and such. It keeps them safe, it keeps them from paying expensive car damages, it keeps them from assaulting/murdering someone, etc.

And no car safety improvements had nothing to do with it either.

By your claim, gun control should work which means reduced gun ownership would mean less violence....which we all know is completely false as we see in places like the UK (the most violent place in all of Western Europe), Australia (where their violence continues to increase), Chicago, New York, California, etc.

Was it the gun control law that reduced the accidentals with firearms? No, it was education, it was the individual choosing to be responsible.

Have background checks stopped the supposed "criminal" from getting a gun? No, but innocent people are being treated like criminals.

Have licensing and permits done anything? No, they haven't....but they have slowly eroded a right into privilege...just as all the others have.

Has confiscations of anything ever stopped something bad from happening? No, but in the case of armaments, it's resulted in the deaths of millions.


If murder, assault, and theft were the only crimes that we needed to punish people for (punishment to prevent those maybe)  and there was absolutely no benefit to a hybrid of a social (not socialism) collective with individual freedoms then we wouldn't have a freakin constitution... the founders would have said screw it, we don't need a constitution, we only need three laws. Obviously that isn't the case. I think they got it right...


Did I say there weren't more? No, just that most fall under those categories. I am saying, laws that actually target the real problem....however the issue we have is not something any amount of laws can correct.

Drugs don't harm anyone and being that you cannot victimize yourself. It is the crimes they commit in their pursuit of more drugs that causes harm to others....all done under their own free will and choice.

And it's funny how you mention the Constitution...has it stopped the politicians (the worst kind of criminal) from manipulating it, claiming it to be a living document, ignoring it? Has it been enforced? No, it has done nothing.

The laws do nothing. Only people can and education is the true weapon.


Your philosophy is ungrounded in any sense of reality. Pure individualism is basically pure anarchy and we have the distinct pleasure of living in a structured government that though it has seen better days, still places us with the greatest opportunity for life liberty and the pursuit of happiness that has ever existed on this planet.


And no, I am not saying anarchy in any form. Just a little government, enough you know it's there, but doesn't get in your way...doesn't make things more difficult for the individual than life already does.

There are only 2 true forms of government in the world:

1) Republic = rule by law - no majority or minority oppression
2) Oligarchy = rule by the few = this is where socialism, communism, dictatorship, monarchy, etc fit.

Anarchy and democracy are mere transition governments to one of those 2.

And no, this is not the government the founders set up...and no, this is not the country of the free anymore.

Actually, they are very well grounded...they just aren't clouded by emotion.

Remember the founders wanted the individual to govern themselves for the most part....not some group.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2013, 12:15:43 AM by ProtoPatriot »
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Offline gsd

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Re: Social Greeting
« Reply #35 on: July 20, 2013, 10:04:47 PM »
This is steadily turning into something completely unrelated to what it was originally posted as.

Proto, proceed with your plan to get members together, but know this: If alcohol and firearms are to be in the same location at the same time, I and those of my mindset will be absent.
It is highly likely the above post may offend you. I'm fine with that.

Offline ProtoPatriot

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Re: Social Greeting
« Reply #36 on: July 21, 2013, 12:45:46 PM »
Proto, proceed with your plan to get members together, but know this: If alcohol and firearms are to be in the same location at the same time, I and those of my mindset will be absent.


Read my reply to NE Bull
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Offline wusker

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Re: Social Greeting
« Reply #37 on: July 21, 2013, 01:06:43 PM »
This is steadily turning into something completely unrelated to what it was originally posted as.

Proto, proceed with your plan to get members together, but know this: If alcohol and firearms are to be in the same location at the same time, I and those of my mindset will be absent.

Agreed. I have never known a responsible gun owner that went to a range or a hunter that had or was consuming alcohol. In this day and age with the media bias towards gun ownership you will find that alcohol and guns together are not acceptable.  The last thing we want is some drunk Nebraskan getting in trouble while carrying or God forbid someone gets killed. Some folks here have worked very hard as lobbist's and with social networking and as board members and a lot of members just word of mouth trying to enact a positive viewpoint of our rights and preserve them as they should be.  Someone else said it it already, you will find that sentiment widely agreed on here.

Offline JimP

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Re: Social Greeting
« Reply #38 on: July 21, 2013, 05:35:09 PM »
Quote
All that aside, If ya'll want to have a NFOA Members picnic (outside of the annual meeting) I am all for it!  I say lets us get together as much as possible, off the internet, in person, and not on the firing range.  Bring the family, and let's all have a good ol' time.

Seems like decades ago a few of us met up out on Jay's farm for some bowling pin, a burger and some salads, and some iced tea ....... and here we are today .....

I like the idea ...... finding the time is the hard part.
The Right to Keep and BEAR Arms is enshrined explicitly in both our State and Federal Constitutions, yet most of us are afraid to actually excercise that Right, for very good reason: there is a good chance of being arrested........ and  THAT is a damned shame.  III.

Offline ProtoPatriot

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Re: Social Greeting
« Reply #39 on: July 21, 2013, 09:45:11 PM »
Agreed. I have never known a responsible gun owner that went to a range or a hunter that had or was consuming alcohol. In this day and age with the media bias towards gun ownership you will find that alcohol and guns together are not acceptable.  The last thing we want is some drunk Nebraskan getting in trouble while carrying or God forbid someone gets killed. Some folks here have worked very hard as lobbist's and with social networking and as board members and a lot of members just word of mouth trying to enact a positive viewpoint of our rights and preserve them as they should be.  Someone else said it it already, you will find that sentiment widely agreed on here.


I take it you haven't read through the whole discussion and I direct you to my reply to NE Bull. Or even the rest of the conversation.
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