NFOA MEMBERS FORUM
General Categories => Information Arsenal => Topic started by: JTH on September 01, 2013, 04:58:59 PM
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At the NFOA meeting, during the Defensive Shooting workshop, one of the things I talked about was "recognizing the situation in time to get your gun out" and how that meant "having a quick and solid draw" in terms of fundamental shooting skills. Remember that?
Read this: http://pistol-training.com/archives/8501 (http://pistol-training.com/archives/8501)
New research, studied over 1100 cases of police reactions in lethal-level altercations. And you know what?
Two seconds.
In over 90% of lethal-level altercations, police officers had 2 seconds or less in which to react. In other words, not 2 seconds to determine it was lethal-level, but after that determination, 2 seconds to react effectively to it.
So---what's YOUR draw time?
(I note: I have NOT read the study referenced there. I've seen the abstract, but I don't have access to the original article. I'm debating buying it... And, I'll note, there is a difference between law enforcement needs, and standard citizen needs. That being said---what IS your draw time?)
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At what distance? I assume this is the time needed to put one shot into an 8" circle.
At the NFOA event I managed 2.3 something. I think that was at 7 yards?
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At what distance? I assume this is the time needed to put one shot into an 8" circle.
At the NFOA event I managed 2.3 something. I think that was at 7 yards?
12" plate, 10 yards.
Due to the fact that the research was done on law enforcement altercations, and (in general) the mean distance is about 9-15 feet, my take on this is that officers had to get their first shots off at 4 yards (average!) in two seconds from a retention holster once it went lethal-force level.
Those carrying concealed have a plus there without the retention. :)
While a lot of people use an 8" circle for "accurate enough for self-defense," personally I'd say to get a realistic idea of what you can do, use a 6" circle at 3 yards, or an 8" at 5 yards. (I'll note that I don't think that this is really stringent enough for effective shot placement in actual stress situations, but it'll at least get you on target in the basic area and give you an idea.)
Don't only practice "draw to one shot", but instead practice draw to four shots (or three, or five---vary this) making sure you get all shots in the circle, and THEN check your draw-to-first-shot time.
Do I think that having a fast draw makes you safe? Nope. Do I think that having a fast, practiced draw gives you a better chance? Certainly.
If you have a 5 second draw (or more), you might think about this.
(Lorimor, are you still going with Glock? Or have you moved back to 1911? You liking that new holster?)
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Who was running the stop watch in the a fore referred to gun fights?
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Who was running the stop watch in the a fore referred to gun fights?
I'm pretty sure you are going to have to read the original research for that answer. :)
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I'm pretty sure you are going to have to read the original research for that answer. :)
Probably cruiser cams?
Fly
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The afternoon Steel Challenge at the NFOA meeting was my first timed firing run and as I don't have the shot timer, I do have a GoPro and editing software to isolate each frame. For my first go at the Steel Challenge I managed a 1.8 second "beep-to-bang" reaction, with an average of about 0.8-0.9 between shots on a new steel target. This of course was with my best couple of runs, but my first time shooting my new pistol. I hadn't had a chance to get out to the range before the meeting and the Steel Challenge course was literally the first time I put a round downrange.
This definitely was a learning experience and I am REALLY looking to make some time to do more practice and hopefully attend a training class from PRT AND MWTS!
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For my first go at the Steel Challenge I managed a 1.8 second "beep-to-bang" reaction, with an average of about 0.8-0.9 between shots on a new steel target.
That's quite good for a first-time attempt, particularly the draw-to-first-shot. There is a 6-stage Steel Challenge match coming up at ENGC in October, by the way.... :)
...and there is also a full 8-stage official Steel Challenge match in Grand Island on the 15th of this month. (Have they advertised that here yet?)
Shooting steel is addictive.
This definitely was a learning experience and I am REALLY looking to make some time to do more practice and hopefully attend a training class from PRT AND MWTS!
:)
{brief advertisement}We have an HT class (working shooting skills) coming up on Sept 20-12. See the post in the Firearms Training sub-forum for details...{end brief advertisement}
Back on topic...
Claude Werner, just today on Facebook, said:
"The Dunning-Kruger Effect; something firearms instructors deal with on a regular basis. It's one reason I like to introduce a skills based performance test early in my classes, although I usually do it informally. Without being subjected to some kind of performance standard, many people, including the vast majority of men, will continue to wallow in their own incompetence."
One of the comments added to that was:
"I've noticed instructing at the local range that being born in America with a penis automatically makes you a capable shooter."
...it is amazing how many people think that. Apparently many males think that, by virtue of their gender and having watched lots of action movies, they automatically both know how to shoot, AND are really really good at it.
(The Dunning-Kruger Effect: http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/evolved-primate/201006/when-ignorance-begets-confidence-the-classic-dunning-kruger-effect (http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/evolved-primate/201006/when-ignorance-begets-confidence-the-classic-dunning-kruger-effect) --this article references "Unskilled and Unaware of It" which is an article/research study that I have my advanced science students read every year.)
Why do I push competition so much? (Other than because it is a ton of fun?) Because for most people, it is the FIRST clue they are ever going to get that they are not as good as they think they are---AND that getting much much better is possible.
Plinking at soda cans at 10 feet with a .22 doesn't make you a good shooter. And getting a 4-inch group at 10 yards with a revolver shot single action doesn't mean you have sufficient skills for effective self-defense. (And it certainly doesn't mean you have the knowledge.)
Competition is one way to find out---it gives you a metric against which to measure your shooting. Taking a class from someone (not the state class, that isn't a technique class) regarding effective techique for CCW is another way. Getting yourself a timer (or downloading the Surefire Shot Timer free for your iPhone) and running some range tests is another way.
What's your draw time, from concealment, to a 6" plate at 3 yards?
(I note: if you just shoot for fun, and you aren't interested in pistol skills for self-defense, keep plinking at cans. It's a good time. :) )
Hmm...you know what? I don't actually know what my time is right now for that particular skill. I know what it USED to be---but I haven't timed it recently. I may have to do that. And yes, I'll post what it looked like and how much I screwed up.
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My time at the NFOA meeting was my first experience with timed shooting as well. I have always been a backyard plinker, shoot some bluerocks etc.
I found out I was not as competent as I would have liked with my concealed carry gun, I was much better with my 22 target pistol.
I have been thinking about trying steel challenge again, and would like to build some steel targets for home practice.
Thanks for letting me try something new and fun.
Greg58
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Why do I push competition so much?
Because you like to argue with Shawn???
Back to the article, the scientist in me always gets a little skeptical when spouting a "firm" statistic like "2 seconds" when in reality they have no idea because they weren't there ((that's called hearsay in the courtroom), especially as referenced in the article you linked. I am NOT discounting the premise of your topic mind you....fast and ON TARGET matters. "There are no missed, only unintended hits". -Tom Givens
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Because you like to argue with Shawn???
I do like to argue. But I also happen to think that Shawn is completely wrong on that topic. :) (Particularly given stats on what really happens in the majority of defensive gun uses.)
Back to the article, the scientist in me always gets a little skeptical when spouting a "firm" statistic like "2 seconds" when in reality they have no idea because they weren't there ((that's called hearsay in the courtroom), especially as referenced in the article you linked. I am NOT discounting the premise of your topic mind you....fast and ON TARGET matters. "There are no missed, only unintended hits". -Tom Givens
Understandable, and I'd have to see their actual research data to say whether or not it has much basis in fact. That being said, the original was "less than 2 seconds" and "90% of the altercations" which makes it a little less strident and absolute as a statement.
Someone earlier here made a good comment that in this day and age, dash cams and microphones actually can give us a good idea of the time frame, as opposed to later guesswork based on hearsay. Like I said, I'll be interested to see what their actual data is based upon. However, given current technology, I'm thinking that at least some of their data should actually be factual, as opposed to anecdotal. I wonder how much? 1100 lethal-level altercations is quite a lot, so I'm also curious as to the range of their data. (Both in time, and in area.)
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great video on the draw stroke. when he puts Cory under pressure for the first time he hits under 2 seconds and it looks slow, within a couple minutes of instruction, Ron Avery gets him on target, live fire in under a 1 sec! Good video and travis haley or his instructors usually teach me something
Ron Avery Talks the Science of the Draw Stroke (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BMSlCyc-SQQ#ws)
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(Lorimor, are you still going with Glock? Or have you moved back to 1911? You liking that new holster?)
Still have the 19 but I haven't got the front sight height nailed down just yet. I put a 10-8 Performance rear on it but I haven't decided on the front and have yet to determine the proper height. I have the plastic "file down" to fit front sight on hand but haven't gotten around to setting it up.
Besides, I have the Vickers 1911 class coming up later this month, so I'm obviously concentrating on the 1911 right now. :)
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Still have the 19 but I haven't got the front sight height nailed down just yet. I put a 10-8 Performance rear on it but I haven't decided on the front and have yet to determine the proper height. I have the plastic "file down" to fit front sight on hand but haven't gotten around to setting it up.
Plastic front sights shear off very easily....that's pretty much the real reason I detest Glock sights. The rear--isn't great, but I can live with it. (Yes, I know, it is ALSO plastic. But it tends to run into things less, and most holsters don't touch the rear sight.) That stock front sight, though, gets thrown off the minute I get something else that isn't plastic.
Are you having significant trouble with the front sight height making your aiming point off? (I've used standard Warren Tacticals on four different Glocks now--34, 17, 19, and 26---and haven't had any issues with POA/POI differences, while just throwing the sights on and calling it good.)
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Still have the 19 but I haven't got the front sight height nailed down just yet. I put a 10-8 Performance rear on it but I haven't decided on the front and have yet to determine the proper height. I have the plastic "file down" to fit front sight on hand but haven't gotten around to setting it up.
Besides, I have the Vickers 1911 class coming up later this month, so I'm obviously concentrating on the 1911 right now. :)
Oh Brother....Lorimor shooting a Glock? Might as well give the guy the keys to the USS Kitty Hawk.....
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Oh Brother....Lorimor shooting a Glock? Might as well give the guy the keys to the USS Kitty Hawk.....
It's dogs and cats living together...mass hysteria!
Fly
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Oh Brother....Lorimor shooting a Glock?
Is that a bad thing? :-\
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Plastic front sights shear off very easily....that's pretty much the real reason I detest Glock sights. The rear--isn't great, but I can live with it. (Yes, I know, it is ALSO plastic. But it tends to run into things less, and most holsters don't touch the rear sight.) That stock front sight, though, gets thrown off the minute I get something else that isn't plastic.
Are you having significant trouble with the front sight height making your aiming point off? (I've used standard Warren Tacticals on four different Glocks now--34, 17, 19, and 26---and haven't had any issues with POA/POI differences, while just throwing the sights on and calling it good.)
The "file down" plastic front sight I'm referring to is another 10-8 product, designed to be a temporary install and sanded to fit so that the proper height can be determined. With the 10-8 rear sight (a nice rugged, 4140 damn near bulletproof hunk of steel with a great "shelf" built-in for one handed manipulations) the original (I think .215" front) shot high for me. I got a taller one but it's too tall.
I read that Glock sights generally print 2" high at 25 yds. I'd rather my POI be dead on there if possible. I like the "combat sight picture."
But never fear guys, I'm merely toying with the Glock. No matter what I try, it just doesn't give me that "where have you been all my life" feeling when I grip it. I think I could learn to live with it, if I had to... I guess.
But the CQB just feels like it belongs in my hand. :)
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abbafandr...you are not privy to our history, Lorimor and me. He correctly believes that the 1911 is THE epitome of handguns for self defense. I for one happen to agree, although for the past 3 years my daily carry has been either a G19 RTF or G23 RTF. That being said, I continue to bust his chops because of his staunch and unrelenting beliefs (until now maybe ?). Furthermore, his wardrobe consists mainly of Thunder Ranch t-shirts, Ho Chi Minh flip flops and a WWCD (What Would Clint Do?) bracelet......and he's a fellow Navy ship mate....he just might cave in and sell me that worthless Wilson he owns too.....Did I mention he has a poster of the Columbus Police Chief above his bed?
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He correctly believes that the 1911 is THE epitome of handguns for self defense from 1911 until 1985 or so, though not really after, in part due to improvements in bullet technology.
Fixed that for you. :)
I for one happen to agree, although for the past 3 years my daily carry has been either a G19 RTF or G23 RTF.
Because you prefer to carry a non-optimal pistol instead. :P
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Because you prefer to carry a non-optimal pistol instead.
And I am better prepared for that "Critical Dynamic Incident" should it occur....having my Ameriglo I.C.E. Claw EMS rear sight at the ready..... working on the Goat Tee and thinking about shaving the head next.....
And might I direct your attention to the Sept 2013 Board Meeting Minutes....your calling awaits
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abbafandr...you are not privy to our history, Lorimor and me. He correctly believes that the 1911 is THE epitome of handguns for self defense. I for one happen to agree, although for the past 3 years my daily carry has been either a G19 RTF or G23 RTF. That being said, I continue to bust his chops because of his staunch and unrelenting beliefs (until now maybe ?). Furthermore, his wardrobe consists mainly of Thunder Ranch t-shirts, Ho Chi Minh flip flops and a WWCD (What Would Clint Do?) bracelet......and he's a fellow Navy ship mate....he just might cave in and sell me that worthless Wilson he owns too.....Did I mention he has a poster of the Columbus Police Chief above his bed?
I think it could be argued that I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed as anyone who's been around me knows I love to give the Glock guys crap, even after they've kicked my A$$ every which way, multiple times. I've seen what I consider some truly astounding shooting done with Glocks.
But I continue to mouth off. :)
I'm just trying to demonstrate to the world that I have a moderately open mind by allowing a Glock to take up residence in my vault. With the GFA glued on, the 19 has become less adversarial and does feel more um... "JMB" in my hands. :)
Who knows where this will lead. :)
But no, I'll never part with the Wilson.
PS I do have a Rangemaster and a PF.com t-shirt in the mix now too. :)
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abbafandr...you are not privy to our history, Lorimor and me.
Indeed I'm not. But was just noting the tendency of many folks here to bad mouth Glock. :'(
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Indeed I'm not. But was just noting the tendency of many folks here to bad mouth Glock. :'(
Only because they are jealous. :)
Story time!
At a certain large range's club meeting awhile back, a new member was discussing shooting with some of the other members, including some who were officials of the club. During this, the new member admitted that she shot a Glock, whereupon one particular member made a disparaging comment or two in a joking manner. And periodically, that member added a couple of other humorous disparaging comments about Glocks. The new member, somewhat worriedly, finally asked "Is there something wrong with Glocks?" A different shooter, who has a way with words, said, "No, no, he's just kidding. If you look at the top five results from any of the pistol matches, you'll see:
Glock
Glock
Glock
Some Shiny Pimp Gun
Glock..."
:)
(You'll have to get the original story from Tom Engel, because he tells it MUCH better than I do.)
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I made it out to the range today to find my time for a draw from concealment at 3 yards on a 6" plate.
Currently uploading the video, so once it is on YouTube, I'll post it here and you can make fun of me.
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I made it out to the range today to find my time for a draw from concealment at 3 yards on a 6" plate.
Currently uploading the video, so once it is on YouTube, I'll post it here and you can make fun of me.
What? Couldn't make it below 1.1 seconds? ;D
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What? Couldn't make it below 1.1 seconds? ;D
Best draw to one shot from concealment on a 6" plate at 3 yards was only 1.15, I think---so no, I couldn't get it below 1.1 seconds. (Best first shot as a part of a draw-to-four-shots was 1.17 seconds. Best total time: 1.85 seconds for a draw and four shots from concealment.)
I'll work on it. :)
(I'll make a post about the video tomorrow.)
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All joking aside, that is wickedly fast. :o
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Ok, got the video finished and uploaded.
It's a little long---ran it once for time, ran it a couple of other times for comparison, ran it with just a draw-to-first-shot for some discussion, then ran it again one last time just to see what would happen after being warmed up.
If all you care about is the first "cold" run----start at 1:18, and watch through 2:20. :)
http://youtu.be/bDvG1ckf22c (http://youtu.be/bDvG1ckf22c)
Remember---this isn't supposed to be a measure of how fast you will actually be in a self-defense situation when someone is trying to kill you. Instead is something you can use over time to rate your increase in skills---in speed and accuracy from concealment at close range.
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Great Video, Thanks for sharing.
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Nice production.....I would like to see some improvement though with the Pincus hand gestures while talking....:^p
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.....I would like to see some improvement though with the Pincus hand gestures while talking....
You just aren't going to leave the Pincus thing alone, are you?
Watch out---pretty soon I'll start wearing Walmart-brand MMA muscle shirts, and grow my beard out (the balding part is working out without any extra help from me), and then I'll start talking in meaningless doublespeak that sounds almost like intelligent rational discussion, and never actually give my students any meaningful objective information about their skill level so that they can improve their skills---and THEN what will you do?
Humph!
Besides, NO ONE is more tactical than RICK TAYLOR.
http://youtu.be/aafh7KpwADg (http://youtu.be/aafh7KpwADg)
(That video never gets old.)
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2 semi related questions
A decent or good shot timer for Android. Some of us dislike Apple koolaid :laugh:
What size are the targets used in USPSA matches?
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2 semi related questions
A decent or good shot timer for Android. Some of us dislike Apple koolaid :laugh:
What size are the targets used in USPSA matches?
Metric Target:
(http://9x23.net/ipsc-metric.jpg)
Classic Target (amoeba!):
(http://www.ipsc.org/diagrams/IPSC_ipsctarget_1.jpg)
A shot timer for Android---I'm not really sure. Here are a couple I've heard of:
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.marzig.shottimer&feature=also_installed (https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.marzig.shottimer&feature=also_installed)
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.stimer&hl=en (https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.stimer&hl=en)
...but I don't have an Android, so I couldn't tell you how well they work.
That being said, for me personally, I've found any phone shot timer works best for setting par times for dryfire practice instead of for live fire practice, simply because the numbers you get tend not to be actual. In other words, you can use the times given as relative references (for example, to see if you are getting faster), but aren't good absolute references (as in, if you compared the numbers to a real shot timer, they would be wrong).
You mileage may vary, of course. I've still used them for both dry and live fire---but a real shot timer simply works much better.
I know, I know----free is good. But seriously, just biting the bullet and buying a CED 7000 or something similar will give you a lot less headaches, and much better data.
http://www.shootersconnectionstore.com/CED-7000-Timer-P168.aspx (http://www.shootersconnectionstore.com/CED-7000-Timer-P168.aspx)
(I will say, though, just getting a timer of ANY type (free or not) makes for better practice than NOT having a timer, so excellent, keep it up, good choice!)
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This one works well for dry practice. It's simple but functional. The downside is you can't adjust the par time. Cost is free.
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.sartuga.android.drypractice&hl=en (https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.sartuga.android.drypractice&hl=en)
More info about it here: http://drypractice.net/app/ (http://drypractice.net/app/)
Doesn't have the features that those Thomas posted, but depending on what you are wanting the app to do . . . .
I agree with Thomas about buying a good shot timer if you are wanting to use it at the range and not strictly dry practice.
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If you want to print your own for dry fire practice (probably too expensive for live fire), here is a thread I posted with links to printable files.
http://nebraskafirearms.org/forum/index.php/topic,5834.msg42283.html#msg42283 (http://nebraskafirearms.org/forum/index.php/topic,5834.msg42283.html#msg42283)
Fly
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(I will say, though, just getting a timer of ANY type (free or not) makes for better practice than NOT having a timer, so excellent, keep it up, good choice!)
Thanks for the info. Probably will splurge for the real timer someday.
Building some target stands, wanted to make sure the IPSC type targets would fit.
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So, just for the sake of my curiosity, how many people DO know their draw time from concealment?
You don't have to give your times if you don't want (but if you do want to, feel free to post a video like I did!) but how many people know:
1) Your draw time from concealment cold?
2) Your average draw time from concealment?
To me, that really seems like important information in terms of choosing good defensive tactics given a real self-defense situation. We've had 559 views of this thread so far, so we've got to have at least 20 people reading it. Do you know your times?
You know, I think I'll start a poll on this, just to get some stats from people. Time to go play with the forum....
So how many people know?
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Finally got a chance to check this morning, except it was at 5 yards on a 9" plate (I guess I forgot what distance to use).
From concealment wearing an IWB holster (worn behind the hip), a t-shirt, with a zip up light jacket that was half way zipped using my normal carry Glock 19
Cold - 2.91 (4 hits)
Best - 2.46 (4 hits)
Average - 2.76
Cold draw - 2.16
Best draw - 1.78
Average draw - 2.07
I need to practice more with my carry gun and holster
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dang my time was 2.18 from a gaming rig. i need to work my ccw draw/shot
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People are using all sorts of different distances and targets---and that's fine. This isn't a competition, so we aren't trying to see how can crowd the timer the most. :)
The point is, how can you make good defensive choices if you don't know your draw? A guy is 15 feet away and starts moving toward you with an impact weapon.
Do you draw?
Draw and move?
Flat-out run away?
Do you close and work empty hand defense?
Which do you choose? How's your sprinting ability? Do you have any empty-hand practice? Is your draw fast enough to make a difference? Is your shooting on the move accurate enough?
Working shooting skills on a timer won't tell you how you will do under life-and-death stress, of course. (And hopefully, you'll never need to find out.) But it WILL tell you if you don't have any chance at all.
If the guy has a baseball bat, is starting to accelerate at you from 15 feet away, and your draw (whether moving or not) is 3 seconds----then you need to either close and work empty-hand, or you need to flat-out run. Maybe you can draw as you run, but your normal draw is just too slow. Unless the guy stops on seeing your hand movement, he is going to reach you before you get the gun out---and there you will be, with your hands occupied at waist level when he is swinging a bat at your head.
If you don't know your skill level, then you can't make appropriate defensive decisions---unless purely by accident. And personally, I don't like to leave my life to chance.
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If the guy has a baseball bat, is starting to accelerate at you from 15 feet away, and your draw (whether moving or not) is 3 seconds----then you need to either close and work empty-hand, or you need to flat-out run. Maybe you can draw as you run, but your normal draw is just too slow. Unless the guy stops on seeing your hand movement, he is going to reach you before you get the gun out---and there you will be, with your hands occupied at waist level when he is swinging a bat at your head.
Not a pleasant scenario. The truth of the matter is your chances (mine at least) of stopping someone at that distance with a handgun are slim and none and Slim may be on his way out of town. You would have to sever the spinal cord with a bullet to stop him. Most self defense ammo is designed to stop IN! the body to prevent collateral damage from over penetration. (Ask NYPD or any agency that has had problem with ball ammo injuring bystanders ) :o
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According to most anti-gunners you should just take out your cell phone and dial 911.
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According to most anti-gunners you should just take out your cell phone and dial 911.
Let me know how that works out. :laugh:
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According to most anti-gunners you should just take out your cell phone and dial 911.
Jimmy Johns?
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15 feet away, armed with a baseball bat, even a semi-athletic dude has the upper hand on you in that situation, regardless of your skills and/or armament.
It's not an unwinnable situation but darn close to it.
They've planned a very good ambush or you weren't paying attention. Or both.
At my age, I don't believe I'm going to outrun most folk but I can become a moving target. I guess I'd start sidestepping as fast as possible, drawing, yelling and hopefully bring the gun to bear in time and shoot if necessary.
But I just don't know if there would be time for all that if he's that close, moving fast and closing. :(
Hopefully the act of engaging in a defensive posture and starting a draw stroke alone would put them off.
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Not a pleasant scenario. The truth of the matter is your chances (mine at least) of stopping someone at that distance with a handgun are slim and none and Slim may be on his way out of town. You would have to sever the spinal cord with a bullet to stop him. Most self defense ammo is designed to stop IN! the body to prevent collateral damage from over penetration. (Ask NYPD or any agency that has had problem with ball ammo injuring bystanders ) :o
I don't know of any self-defense ammo that I would trust that is designed to "stop in the body of a bad guy." All of the ammo I would trust has made the FBI recommended penetration depth of 12" in properly calibrated ballistic gel. I wouldn't trust any ammo designed to "stop overpenetration." Decades of ballistics testing has taught us that any round that will not "overpenetrate" through interior walls or other "soft" barriers will not penetrate enough to reliably physiologically (in contrast to psychologically) incapacitate a target.
The reason NYPD or other law enforcement agencies have a problem with collateral damage isn't because of overpenetration. It's because the average police officer misses 80% of his/her shots when looking at officer involved shooting statistics. Whether that's because of inadequate training or lax qualification requirements is another discussion entirely.
I also disagree that your chances are slim to none... If you move away from your attacker and get the gun out fast and get shots on target, your chances are pretty decent. Obviously more range is preferred. But this is why we should all practice drawing from concealment and using a timer to get it to be FAST. Research has shown that to "win" in a self-defense scenario you really only need to do three things: React quickly, get the gun out fast, and get shots on target fast.
I know I need a lot more work. My average draw from concealment to first shot is around 1.3-1.5 seconds at a close range target... My holster is great for concealment but it holds the gun to my body so tightly that getting the initial grip on the gun is a challenge... It may be time to research a new holster.
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Jimmy Johns?
They'd probably get there faster!
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They'd probably get there faster!
As long as there's bacon on the sammiches. Bacon makes everything better.
I really need to invest in a training system like the LASR system. Practicing drawing from concealment and dry firing is great, but some target feedback would be immensely helpful. Just like in competition, you can't miss fast enough to win.
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Bacon makes everything better.
Agreed. Stealing a partial quote from King of Queens..."I'd eat my own foot if it had bacon on it".
Fly
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I also disagree that your chances are slim to none... If you move away from your attacker and get the gun out fast and get shots on target, your chances are pretty decent. Obviously more range is preferred. But this is why we should all practice drawing from concealment and using a timer to get it to be FAST. Research has shown that to "win" in a self-defense scenario you really only need to do three things: React quickly, get the gun out fast, and get shots on target fast.
To clarify my view. In this situation, the dude with a baseball bat 15 feet and closing fast, if your only plan is to draw your handgun and shoot and stop him, I don't like the chances for most people.
1) Most people couldn't even draw the gun fast enough in that time, let alone under this situation.
2) Unfortunately, people don't drop like steel poppers when they are hit by a bullet.
That being said, I would have no intention standing there, doing my best baseball imitation :)
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For the scenario you listed, JTH, one must take evasive maneuvers while drawing or run, REALLY FAST! Maybe a tactical ground roll somersault... you should probably make sure you are as tactical as a tactical operator can be, in beast mode!
All joking aside though, learning to draw on the move (side step, backing up, lunging out of the way) I think would be an important skill for such a situation.
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Went to the range and tried drawing from concealment, two types, pocket and IWB hip.
The wife was timing me with the downloaded timer apps. This almost caused serious relationship strain... until I figured out that the timers were picking other shots. I asked her to stop after 4 or 5 shots and when I checked the string there would 7 or more. She insisted that she was hitting the button.
One of them kept showing an ad saying the phone was infected and I needed to download something to cure it.
I tried all 3 apps I downloaded. They would probably be fine IF I was the only one shooting.
Basically, I got what I paid for. So I didn't really learn squat about draw times. A timer is in order.