NFOA MEMBERS FORUM
General Categories => Newsworthy => Topic started by: bullit on August 27, 2014, 06:26:26 AM
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Gee whiz, even the crew of COPS is in danger in the worthless city of Omaha ....
http://www.omaha.com/news/crime/robbery-suspect-dead-after-shooting-at-wendy-s-cops-tv/article_a919c242-2d98-11e4-9cee-001a4bcf6878.html (http://www.omaha.com/news/crime/robbery-suspect-dead-after-shooting-at-wendy-s-cops-tv/article_a919c242-2d98-11e4-9cee-001a4bcf6878.html)
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Suppose we'll have riots?
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Yes, rioting by the fans of COPS ....
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NO JUSTICE NO PEACE, I'm headed to The Mart!!!!
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according to the holes in the window, looks like pretty good shot placement on center mass of a moving target?
66bigblock
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It has just been reported that the COPS videographer has died from his wounds. In all the years of this show it has been reported that this is the first time one of their employees has been shot.
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A suspect was shot dead and a crew member with the “Cops” television show later died after the apparent disruption of a robbery Tuesday night at a Wendy’s restaurant in midtown Omaha, police said.
More than 30 shots were fired, officials said. The fatal shots apparently were fired by an Omaha police officer. Officials said it appears the only shots fired came from police.
Let's see if the dots connect.........
Perp is dead.
COPS crew member dead.
Only shots fired were by LEO.
??????????
sfg
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Get out your check book Chief...... so much for public relations ....
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Scott Vorhees and KFAB just posted this on fb:
A highly reliable, high-placed source just confirmed to me that Omaha Police have unintentionally shot and killed a crew member of the TV show "Cops." The unnamed crew member died almost immediately last night in the incident, which took place at approx. 9:20 p.m. Central Time. Omaha police chief Todd Schmaderer will hold a news conference at 2:30 p.m. Central Time today
Will be interested in hearing the press conference. What a bad deal.
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Let's see if the dots connect.........
Perp is dead.
COPS crew member dead.
Only shots fired were by LEO.
??????????
sfg
It was reported by the World Herald that the robbery suspect had an airsoft gun.
Also according to them it was not the videographer but a mike person that was shot.
I am certain there is lots of video for OPD and because of the conflict most likely NSP to review in this case. There will need to be many lessons for OPD to learn from the after action, this is not meant to bash our police.
Officers that were there I am certain were doing what they felt at the time to be the correct thing. Their families as well as the families of those shot and others involved are all questioning what happened and where things are going for them this morning.
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what a damn shame, of course the first crew member of the Cops show had to be shot and killed IN OMAHA BY OPD
I hope that report of the bad guy having an air soft gun are correct, and that damned orange tip better have been painted black or removed or Omaha is in for trouble, certain parts of this city are just ripe for some type of unrest
"something bad happened? lets steal stuff"
If I owned a business anywhere near that area I'd be armed, I'd let my employees be armed and I'd let it be known that we're armed and we'll defend ourselves and our property.
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If I owned a business anywhere near that area I'd be armed, I'd let my employees be armed and I'd let it be known that we're armed and we'll defend ourselves and our property.
No such thing as a good neighborhood anymore. But what would armed do in this case, where the bad guy has a squirt gun? If one is a gun person, to the point of trained and a CHP license, one would think they would recognize a toy gun. I am not going to pull my gun, on someone pointing a toy gun at me.
Here in Lincoln, someone (later caught I think) robbed a Sonic with an orange tipped gun. The employee handed over the money, to a toy gun. Every parent, every CHP holder should be able to distinguish from across the room, an orange tipped gun. It has not come out yet if the toy gun in this case was altered to look realistic.
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A lot of airsofts look very real. And a lot of guns nowadays with pink and purple and rainbow anodized parts look like toys. I reckon that if you're using a realistic toy to rob a restaurant, you're pretty much volunteering to be shot by the police who rush through the door answering a call about an armed robbery in progress.
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Gary, I don't want to speak for landon but my interpretation was that he was speaking about the neighborhood where the shooting took place at some time in the future when rioting might take place.
Moreover, an Airsoft gun (not a squirt gun), especially if the tip is not orange, looks virtually identical to a real gun. I highly doubt that anyone could tell the difference (if the orange tip was painted black) in the midst of a defensive encounter. I'd be willing to bet that six out of ten people, maybe more, wouldn't even spot the orange tip in the midst of a high-stress encounter.
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so the kid fired his air soft gun, witnesses saw the slide move back and forth,
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No such thing as a good neighborhood anymore. But what would armed do in this case, where the bad guy has a squirt gun? If one is a gun person, to the point of trained and a CHP license, one would think they would recognize a toy gun. I am not going to pull my gun, on someone pointing a toy gun at me.
Here in Lincoln, someone (later caught I think) robbed a Sonic with an orange tipped gun. The employee handed over the money, to a toy gun. Every parent, every CHP holder should be able to distinguish from across the room, an orange tipped gun. It has not come out yet if the toy gun in this case was altered to look realistic.
Gary I don't usually have major disagreements with what you say, but I do here. Criminals have for a long time been altering real guns to make them look like toys, gluing on orange tips, painting them bright colors to look like squirt guns and more. If someone points what could be considered a possible firearm at me with what I feel is unlawful intent I would be concerned for my life and have complete desire and ability to defend myself. This magic ability to know from a distance, and in this case the dark, what is real and what is a toy; lets just say it does not exist.
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Police have released details on the gun. I saw a photo of the gun, from a press conference. It was a air soft copy of a full sized Beretta. It did not have any orange paint. Officers say the robber was shooting airsoft pellets at them, but did not know it was not a real gun. They reported it sounded like a real gun.
I myself, have never seen an airsoft gun, that sounds like a 9mm going off.
The robber is a long time bad guy, out on parole from another state for armed robbery. He was paroled to Nebraska.
The window shots were from inside the store, going out.
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+10 Andy
Almost since the start of orange tip laws for toy guns, the criminal element has been painting the tips of real guns orange or in some other ways modifying real guns to look like toys. This effort is to take advantage of any lag time a Peace Officer may have when viewing a potentially armed thug.
If someone is threatening me with what looks like a real firearm I am under no obligation legal or otherwise is determining whether it is real or not.
This also plays into the disparity of force continuum. A thug assumes some martial arts stances and tells me that, "I am a black belt in yada and I am going to f#@k you up. I can legally assume he is telling the truth and not having attained equal skills I can use a firearm to defend myself in that situation.
Somebody points a gun at me I can legally assume it is real and defend myself with my own firearm.
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You guys willing to shoot folks with toy guns, lets talk after you shoot someone holding one, and let me know how that is working out for you.
Three police officers in a small room, could not tell the report of a gun fired at least twice, was an airsoft gun?
Someone with experience with these guns, I wish you would chime in on this. Do they sound like a 9mm going off? Sound, muzzle flash?
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A blowback operated CO2 airsoft pistol looks exactly like the real thing and has a loud enough report that under the influence of adrenaline it would be very easy to mistake it for a live round being fired. A few years ago I was at a gun show and some guys with airsoft guns at their table pulled the trigger. For a split second I thought it was a real gun being fired. Even if it wasn't fired, they are so realistic that there would be absolutely no way for the officer to know it wasn't real.
As others have said, criminals can and do paint the muzzle orange to try to deceive people. Assuming a gun is fake when it's not completely obvious is a good way to get killed.
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Gary, I can't believe you have not made the thought progression on this. The police see a man pointing a gun, then said gun is pointed in their direction, making noise and moving, and you are standing there trying to discern what caliber he is using!
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Case in point. This is an airsoft pistol - does anyone really think they could tell it's airsoft when it's pointed at you?
(http://img3.redwolfairsoft.com/upload/product/img/TM-G17-3G-1L.jpg)
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Not to mention, if someone points a gun at me and it's realistic enough that I can't tell it's airsoft, I'm certainly not going to wait until I hear the report of it being fired before I decide whether to defend myself. And once the shooting has started I highly doubt if anyone will notice the sound of the criminal's gun over the sound of their own.
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Gary, why do you even bother carrying a gun? I don't think there is a situation ever where you would use it.
When someone is turning to you with what looks like a very real firearm in their hand you have one second or less to either pull the trigger or die, I'll pull the trigger and live.
You will be standing there trying to determine whether it is real or not or if there a bathroom window you can dive through. Gary, in that situation you will die, so why bother to carry a gun at all?
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bkoenig - Of course - incorrect stippling on the grip. Any rookie can spot that...
6bigblock
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Gary, why do you even bother carrying a gun? I don't think there is a situation ever where you would use it.
When someone is turning to you with what looks like a very real firearm in their hand you have one second or less to either pull the trigger or die, I'll pull the trigger and live.
You will be standing there trying to determine whether it is real or not or if there a bathroom window you can dive through. Gary, in that situation you will die, so why bother to carry a gun at all?
+1
IMHO his logic is incredibly dangerous not only to himself but those who he teaches.
I also got a laugh hearing and reading the criticism of OPD on social media and from people before some facts were released today at 2:30. ::)
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bkoenig - Of course - incorrect stippling on the grip. Any rookie can spot that...
6bigblock
Custom stippling. :D
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(http://www.reactiongifs.us/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/popcorn_danny_devito.gif)
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Rick, would you pass the popcorn please?
Greg58
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The shooting of the bad guy: fine. Whatever.
The spray and pray ? Even hitting (let alone killing) by stander ? Totally unnacceptable.
If a citizen had done this, they'd be in jail, chastised, shunned, and facing huge civil suits.
The officers ****ed up big time, and the city & PD know it.
PS: Hiya!
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A blowback operated CO2 airsoft pistol looks exactly like the real thing and has a loud enough report that under the influence of adrenaline it would be very easy to mistake it for a live round being fired.
And I might add GARY it is still launching a "PROJECTILE" .......
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The shooting of the bad guy: fine. Whatever.
The spray and pray ? Even hitting (let alone killing) by stander ? Totally unnacceptable.
If a citizen had done this, they'd be in jail, chastised, shunned, and facing huge civil suits.
The officers ****ed up big time, and the city & PD know it.
PS: Hiya!
I'm going to reserve judgement on hitting the crew member until I know the circumstances. It's entirely possible he was in the line of fire. I'll agree it doesn't look good, though.
Where ya been? We have a serious lack of SCIENCE around here.
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Seeing the stills from the presser today, the guy was certainly acting like he had a real gun in engaging the cops. I don't fault them for shooting him. It's unfortunate that the sound guy was killed and the city will likely face (and settle) a suit by his family.
As for the comments predicting rioting, I think that is asinine. When have there ever been riots over an armed robber being shot in the act? What happened in Ferguson may or may not have been justified, but everything the police did in the immediate aftermath made it look like a cover up was in the works. I read a lot of posts from pro-2A folks about how they would respond to a militarized police presence in their neighborhood, so lets quit making snap judgments that can be viewed as racist.
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rstrstdrstduy;re'ostiedo'e
Damnit. Hit wrong key.
I'm going to reserve judgement on hitting the crew member until I know the circumstances. It's entirely possible he was in the line of fire. I'll agree it doesn't look good, though.
In the line of fire ? Don't shoot.
http://training.nra.org/nra-gun-safety-rules.aspx (http://training.nra.org/nra-gun-safety-rules.aspx)
Know your target and what is beyond.
Be absolutely sure you have identified your target beyond any doubt. Equally important, be aware of the area beyond your target. This means observing your prospective area of fire before you shoot. Never fire in a direction in which there are people or any other potential for mishap. Think first. Shoot second.
Where ya been? We have a serious lack of SCIENCE around here.
Rules at new apt complex make reloading a bit dubious so I've not gone about doing so.
Also, being a real apt complex - gotta be more careful about loud power tools and smelly chemicals.
Sooooo... most of my interesting projects are on hold :(. I may have to steal a room here at work and turn it into my workshop heheheh.
In the last few months, I've managed to switch keyboard layouts from Qwerty to Colemak. Am digging it :D.
In place of !!! SCIENCE !!! I've picked up a cheap Squier Stratocaster and have been learning guitar. Well. *Trying* to learn lol.
As is probably easy to guess, I've already picked up some luthier tools and have done some work on the guitar already. Also picked up a second cheap guitar to do more drastic experimentation on.
Sitting between keyboard and monitor is a perfboard prototyping pcb with some diodes, caps, chokes, etc on it for a 4 output completely isolated and ultra clean 9V guitar pedal power supply I'll be building soon (no ground loops, and stuff to eliminate ripple and AC hum).
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Seeing the stills from the presser today, the guy was certainly acting like he had a real gun in engaging the cops. I don't fault them for shooting him. It's unfortunate that the sound guy was killed and the city will likely face (and settle) a suit by his family.
As for the comments predicting rioting, I think that is asinine. When have there ever been riots over an armed robber being shot in the act? What happened in Ferguson may or may not have been justified, but everything the police did in the immediate aftermath made it look like a cover up was in the works. I read a lot of posts from pro-2A folks about how they would respond to a militarized police presence in their neighborhood, so lets quit making snap judgments that can be viewed as racist.
Omaha and COPS had a contract ruling out any liability for accidental deaths during filming so any lawsuit, while possibly entertaining for the media, would ultimately prove a wasted effort.
Toy gun or not, he presented and brandished it as if it were real. I've always told my son the only thing more dangerous than a real gun is a toy gun in an argument. In the officer's shoes, I'd have shot the guy and not let his stupidity burden me with any guilt.
As for worrying over being viewed as racist for holding or offering an opinion, I stopped being concerned over such labels when Attorney General Holder declared all of us as cowardly and racist to the Euro pressies.
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In the line of fire ? Don't shoot.
http://training.nra.org/nra-gun-safety-rules.aspx (http://training.nra.org/nra-gun-safety-rules.aspx)
Oh, I definitely agree. Bad things can happen under stress when bullets are flying, though. Maybe he was trying to get out of the way and ran in front of the officer while he was shooting. Not saying that's an excuse, but a scenario like that might explain how it happened. We just don't know at this point.
I do think a more likely scenario is just p*** poor shooting, though.
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I won't take a position against someone's shooting ability when they believe they are being shot at.
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Story I am hearing now is this...two doors, one on each end of service counter. First officer enters and moves to open area in front of seating, cameraman follows moving behind officer into seating area, sound man is in glass atrium. Ordered to stop, perp bolts for atrium, aims and fires "gun" at first officer as two additional officers enter 2nd door on opposite end and seeing this engage the perp. Single bullet goes through atrium glass and hits soundman in gap under the arm of his vest as perp tries to go past.
Lots of shooting, lots of movement, cramped space, and absolutely no luck at all for soundman as single bullet hits big artery in armpit.
Got that from a source I consider credible and informed, but take it for what you will. Need to lay blame? Put it on the A-hole who the Kansas Penal system considered rehabilitated after a couple of years incarceration for his numerous felonies.
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I won't take a position against someone's shooting ability when they believe they are being shot at.
Agreed. While 30 rounds from 3 officers sounds like a lot, people don't fall over like in the movies.
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Story I am hearing now is this...two doors, one on each end of service counter. First officer enters and moves to open area in front of seating, cameraman follows moving behind officer into seating area, sound man is in glass atrium. Ordered to stop, perp bolts for atrium, aims and fires "gun" at first officer as two additional officers enter 2nd door on opposite end and seeing this engage the perp. Single bullet goes through atrium glass and hits soundman in gap under the arm of his vest as perp tries to go past.
Lots of shooting, lots of movement, cramped space, and absolutely no luck at all for soundman as single bullet hits big artery in armpit.
Got that from a source I consider credible and informed, but take it for what you will. Need to lay blame? Put it on the A-hole who the Kansas Penal system considered rehabilitated after a couple of years incarceration for his numerous felonies.
If that's how it went down the officer may have had no idea the sound man was behind the glass. If you're in a lighted area and the other side of the glass is dark it can be almost opaque.
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I won't take a position against someone's shooting ability when they believe they are being shot at.
I agree especially since most who speak about that have never been in a gunfight.
As for knowing your background. As far as I can gather watching the news conference it sounded as if he sound guy had a problem getting in the building since he normally is directly behind the cameraman or so I am told. It sounded as if he took cover in the breezeway and in the Wendy's I've been in where they have one of those usually there is a small brick wall 16'' or so high with glass above. Haven't been in that location so that's only a guess based upon other locations with a similar set up. Either way he took cover on the ground in the breezeway which would explain a bullet through the armpit area in to the body bypassing the vest. If you are fixated on a fleeing subject which you believe just tried to kill you you might not even see the man on the ground if indeed he wasn't hidden behind something. I would guess tunnel vision, auditory reduction, and the adrenalin rush would play a greater role than most think. I've never been in a gunfight so don't know just going off courses, things read, videos ect...
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You guys willing to shoot folks with toy guns, lets talk after you shoot someone holding one, and let me know how that is working out for you.
Three police officers in a small room, could not tell the report of a gun fired at least twice, was an airsoft gun?
Someone with experience with these guns, I wish you would chime in on this. Do they sound like a 9mm going off? Sound, muzzle flash?
I know first hand that the newer airsofts can sting like a son-of-a-biscuit and they do make some noise. It's not a big boom...but can be more like a .22 short. Regardless, it's still a pop so that if you are close enough and on the receiving end of one of these, you should be very concerned about what you think you saw and heard. In the heat of the moment, things can go wonky very quick so that it's possible that you cannot always be 100% positive of what it is you think you saw or heard. The criminal mind can remove or color a plastic tip on an airsoft gun just as well as paint orange on the tip of a real .45 cal.
Like others have said....are you going to stand still and take that split second risk to stop and analyze what kind of firearm is in the hand of the perp who has something that looks like a firearm pointed directly at you or are you going to take the initiative and react to avoid being shot at first? We're talking split-seconds to make that decision and it ain't the old rock, paper, scissors game....its life or death...yours.
It's a sad outcome as to what happened in Omaha and only a handful of people know what actually happened that night.
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And I might add GARY it is still launching a "PROJECTILE"
Indeed, and more than one person has been killed by such a weapon. Catch one in the eye or temple and it will stop somewhere in your brain. Catch one between the ribs and it could penetrate into or through the heart or major vessel. Also potentially fatal.
jcp.bmj.com/content/51/7/525.full.pdf
It's like saying that a 6' 4" 294 lb "child" with a penchant for strong-arming is unarmed.
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If that's how it went down the officer may have had no idea the sound man was behind the glass. If you're in a lighted area and the other side of the glass is dark it can be almost opaque.
I watched the press conference and that, though having a little more detail, is what the chief said the video that he and the County Prosecutor watched had.
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If one is a gun person, to the point of trained and a CHP license, one would think they would recognize a toy gun. I am not going to pull my gun, on someone pointing a toy gun at me.
The douchiest comment I have ever seen, bar none. Did you see the Airsoft they showed form the scene of the crime? This is THE ACTUAL gun - there is no way in hell you can say that you could tell this was a fake from even 10 feet away when someone is pointing it at you in a life or death situation. You need to get off your "I am so freakin smart and know everything nobody is as great as me" high horse for once and quit being a douche.
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If that's how it went down the officer may have had no idea the sound man was behind the glass. If you're in a lighted area and the other side of the glass is dark it can be almost opaque.
Does change things a bit, yeah.
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Can't we all agree, that being able, to correctly distinguish, what item, is being handled, by a "good kid", is like, being able to, tell a, cucumber, from a, zucchini? Once, in the jar, the dill, can hinder, your view, but quite the, suprise, if after, all your work, your pickle, ends up being, a, dilled, and flavored, zucchini? I'd rather, be sure, of what, I'm about to eat, as not to, regret it later.
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Rod, please fill in any holes for me.
We spoke on a bill last session (and for the life of me I don't recall where it ended up). In short the state wanted to make committing a felony with the use of a toy or facsimile gun the same as using a real firearm. First thought was to attack this, but then we realized as CHP or any one defending ones self would be affected by this. If someone was threatening me or mine and I had every reason to believe my life was in danger and shot/responded in self defense, I would rather the question of whether the gun was real or not weigh into getting the attacker off or convicting me in wrongful death suit.
We spoke to agreeing with the principle of the bill, but must keep the legal description separated a firearm is a firearm and a toy or facsimile is just that. It was worded dangerously to include a toy AS a firearm. Does my rambling make any sense?
Any way. I'm still catching up on everything here, but sounds like a bad day all around for a lot of folks.
Sent from my C771 using Tapatalk 2
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Gary ever heard of Sns activation, you clearly don't train for duress or understand use of force. What would you teach your students? Verify a gunshot wound to yourself before chambering a round and defending yourself?
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It's like saying that a 6' 4" 294 lb "child" with a penchant for strong-arming is unarmed.
^This
The rioting in Ferguson had nothing to do with injustice. It was entirely about opportunism. Those same (or similar) opportunists could make their way to Omaha just as easily as they did Ferguson, MO. The perp's family is already on the news saying, "Well-trained people should be able to distinguish a toy from a real gun." All we need to light the powder keg is for Jackson and/or Sharpton to show up with their infinite supply of matches.
My statement(s) had/have nothing to do with race or racism. They were/are made purely on the basis of "forewarned is forearmed". To call them racist, Husker, is to misunderstand them entirely.
My son passes the Wendy's in question on his way to and from school every day.
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Jeremy has this mostly right. I too am stretching my memory to recall much detail of the bill. There was some debate on how this could affect CHP holders. After evaluating the bill it did not appear to have any impact on the use of force laws. Our issue with the bill was with definitions of firearms being changed.
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Mudinyeri,
I was not calling anyone or any statement in this thread racist. Jumping to predictions of riots with no basis to do so will be viewed by some people as racist. The protesting in Ferguson was predictable given the reaction of the police becoming defensive. The police response to the protests was inappropriate and created the opportunity for bad actors to exploit.
My view is that Mike Brown may have been a bad man and the officer may have been justified. Unfortunately, the way the police and county attorney responded destroyed their credibility and that community will never believe the officer isn't guilty of murder. Transparency would have nipped it in the butt early.
Chief Schmaderer has handled this well. He quickly released as much detail as possible, including still frames from the video. Transparency makes it hard for opportunists to feed off of uncertainty and distrust.
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Slight thread drift, but I am wondering:
Was the Wendys posted as a gun free zone?
66bigblock
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Slight thread drift, but I am wondering:
Was the Wendys posted as a gun free zone?
66bigblock
It has been a few weeks since I have been there but I do not remember ever seeing a posting there, I live just south of this Wendy's and drive by regularly.
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I've never seen a sign there either.
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thanks guys. One of the news clips last night showed the door in a passing shot. I saw some type of sign posted, but no matter how I paused it on my tv/dvr I couldnt make out what it said. Could have been a no shirt no service sign also or anything else.
Thanks for the response.
66bigblock
(p.s. - I almost typed no shoot, no service) talk about freudian slip...
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just heard on KFAB, that the waver he signed for being damaged expired 4 days before the shooting,
not sure if its true, but that could cost us,
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When have there ever been riots over an armed robber being shot in the act?
Do a Google search with "robber shot riot -ferguson -brown -france -salinas", and take your pick.
I'll make a prediction: people rioting over armed robbers being shot by police during the commission of the crime will increase in frequency for political reasons.
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the 1969 riots in Omaha were caused by a officer shooting a young black girl, killing her, was a very interesting time to say the least,
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Coming up in four minutes (6:00pm) WOWT Omaha is running a report on the small difference between real guns and Airsoft ones. Should be interesting.
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Just to add my two cents about the 'should have know better' stuff...
Shooting of the bad guy I don't have any problems with.
He was committing a crime. (this is critical).
He brandished an object that looked and acted like a firearm in a manner that is consistent with how a firearm is used. (this is critical)
Even if it was a solid chunk of wood painted black... there's grounds for deadly force IMHO.
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You need to get off your "I am so freakin smart and know everything nobody is as great as me" high horse for once and quit being a douche.
LAMO
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http://freepatriot.org/2014/08/28/libs-run-amok-california-passes-legislation-toy-guns/ (http://freepatriot.org/2014/08/28/libs-run-amok-california-passes-legislation-toy-guns/)
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Jeremy has this mostly right. I too am stretching my memory to recall much detail of the bill. There was some debate on how this could affect CHP holders. After evaluating the bill it did not appear to have any impact on the use of force laws. Our issue with the bill was with definitions of firearms being changed.
Also what I remember. I felt like the wording of the bill was too loose and open to wide interpretation. It didn't seem to focus on defining what constitutes a weapon during the commission of a crime , but rather on just a broad definition of a "weapon' being anything a person could feel threatened by.
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Here's the thread discussing the legislation:
http://nebraskafirearms.org/forum/index.php/topic,10941.0.html (http://nebraskafirearms.org/forum/index.php/topic,10941.0.html)
It's a slippery slope calling things something that they're not.
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We seem to have lost our Andy's and Mayberry's.
Sent from my SPH-L600 using Tapatalk
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Gary, you ask a lot of questions. Count the question marks.
So my question to you is...what is the point of your last post?
Then there is this statement:
"I was not there, but the deadly force used against this punk, and the way it was done, sounds off to me."
"Experts" who were not there can speculate and hypothesize all they want after the fact. When all is said and done, it changes nothing.
I now see Gary changed his mind as he edited out a bunch of things. As Emily Litella used to say...."Never mind."
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I was going to say "drunk post" when I first read Garys rambling speech. But I checked the time and it was 9 in the morning.
who knows.
66bigblock
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Gary got to fisk this because there is too much misinformation in it, and some that I agree with but feel the need to divide the two.
First, the police have not released a round count for how many rounds were fired. This number of thirty is what one news agency was reporting, initially others were saying 20 etc.
Why did the police go in instead of waiting; they saw the criminal point the gun to the cashiers head like he was going to fire, at that point they broke contain and entered. There were two entrances into the building the one with the vestibule where the sound person was shot and another. One officer went in through the vestibule area (followed by the cameraman and sound engineer) and immediately worked his way into the middle of the room, the other officers came in through the other door. I believe that the decision to enter the building when the officers felt that the cashier was in immanent danger was the correct one with the information they had at that time. Unlike you or me in a self defense situation they have a duty to do so to try to protect innocent life.
Point being made, this is the criminals fault not the cops.
First, the police have not released a round count for how many rounds were fired. This number of thirty is what one news agency was reporting, initially others were saying 20 etc. While moving and shooting at a moving object hitting that object is very difficult, add to that the stress of being shot at while doing so...I think this is exactly what a couple of other trainers around here talk about when they talk about training to fire under stress and that accuracy etc. goes down. Your point that this event is something that us concealed carriers can learn from is correct, it shows the importance of this type of training.
Once the criminal pointed the gun at the officers and started to fire the decision was made, by the criminal, the police must return fire. What else can they do when in close quarters with no cover or concealment, it automatically becomes move and shoot your life is the most important issue at that point. I agree with your general premise of knowing what is behind what you are shooting at etc. but in this situation they were correct in moving and shooting until the threat was ended. This criminal did not care about the public and had this been a real gun could have just gone around shooting people at random, the police have a duty to stop this there.
Next this exchange happened very quickly, just a matter of seconds. During this exchange the criminal moved from where the officer had a good backstop (cement walls of the building) toward the door and windows, it was at this door that the sound engineer was trapped behind. This movement by the criminal would have covered about ten yards before he exited the building.
Next the Liability Waiver, another point made by an ill-informed news station. It has already been shown that this information is false, the crew had another week on their shooting contract. This will not cost taxpayers.
The COPS crew following the police in, I'm torn on this issue. I will point out the crew trains to do this (even more training than the police do annually) and know the dangers and takes the protective measures they feel they must. This stuff is covered in the shows contract with the cities they film in and I'm certain they will be reviewing this now.
Now points I agree with (in general), yes the letting criminals out of jail is a problem. They are not "rehabilitated" in reality they have just been made more violent; recidivism rates, like violent crime rates, are much too high and we as a society must find an answer to this.
Militarization of the police is another issue that I would generally agree with you on, but I don't see where it has anything to do with this case. If it had been Andy and Barney from Mayberry there the only difference is that there only would have been seven shots fired because the police ran out of rounds at that point. Andy got off all six of his and Barney finally would have gotten the ability to shoot his one round.
And this was an all around bad deal that got one criminal (actually two there was another arrest) off the street and yes it would have been better if it went through the courts, but the decision for it to end this way was made by the criminal.
Well I guess that Gary took down his post while I was typing this, but I am going to leave it here because it addresses several issues that keep coming up. At this point there is no reason to believe that any officer did anything illegal or against policy and procedure. These officers (and the film crew) did their jobs and we need to support them in this difficult time.
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AAllen ... I will have to point out one GLARING error in your post .... Sheriff Andy Taylor never carried... :)
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And Gary only has one bullet which he keeps in his shirt pocket.
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Bullit, there were at least two episodes when Andy went strapped.
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You guys willing to shoot folks with toy guns, lets talk after you shoot someone holding one, and let me know how that is working out for you.
Worked out just fine for me.
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We seem to have lost our Andy's and Mayberry's.
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Gary,
From posting how you would disassemble your Glock if being pulled over by the Police.
To posting one of the questions and answer from the official NE CHP test.
Including your latest post which you have edited after the fact to try to save some dignity.
Just three examples of your thoughtlessness being demonstrated on this Forum.
You sir are just simply plum full of it.
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You guys willing to shoot folks with toy guns, lets talk after you shoot someone holding one, and let me know how that is working out for you.
It's too bad this was the only quote captured before it was deleted.
In a course I attended taught by (no disrespect to the instructors on here) someone who has a hell of a lot more knowledge and standing throughout the firearm community world wide than anyone on here and there is plenty of case law that already exists where this is covered. Same with criminals painting flash suppressors or the end of the barrel of a real gun orange to exonerate such nonsense.
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Scariest thing is that he's teaching others this same mindset
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I'm not going to go all admin here, but can we keep this thread on track.
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In a course I attended taught by (no disrespect to the instructors on here) someone who has a hell of a lot more knowledge and standing throughout the firearm community world wide than anyone on here and there is plenty of case law that already exists where this is covered. Same with criminals painting flash suppressors or the end of the barrel of a real gun orange to exonerate such nonsense.
No disrespect felt. While some of the people here (among all of us, not merely among the instructors) have a significant amount of knowledge, skill, and experience, there are always people that have more.
And yes, contrary to what Gary has implied/suggested, there IS a significant amount of case law and specific LEO-department-approved (meaning: lawyer-approved) procedures regarding "objects that look like firearms" and how to deal with them---which means that citizens defending themselves in the same manner will also be able to defend their actions in court. Chris C is exactly correct.
As always----I wish police officers had better training in the skills needed for use of force. However, given the facts that I've seen regarding this case, the outcome doesn't surprise me, and I do NOT think that officers made poor choices or did anything for which they should be accused. That opinion may change given new information---but for the moment, given the training they had, the situation as described, and the actions as stated--they acted in accordance with departmental policy and training, they did what they were supposed to do, and there was unfortunately a tragic accident at the time.
I note that NORMAL people would have DUCKED. People running a TV show apparently have different priorities.
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+10 JT
I would also add that in times of economic stress and dwindling budgets one of the first things cut or reduced is firearms training. Police and Sheriff's departments all over the country are having as hard a time buying ammo as the average citizen.
We have had a paid order in for 12,000 rounds of .357 Sig and 3000 rounds of 40 S&W for more than a year. It has only been in the last few months that it is starting to trickle in 500 to 1000 rounds at a time. Because of the shortage the state has reduced the number of rounds required for yearly qualification.
Of course they have also increased the times to qualify on each stage as well. Many instructors are referring to the new Qualification requirements as "No Cop left behind".
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If we are lucky he will have suffered enough shame that he quits posting here altogether. I doubt that will happen, since rarely do over-inflated egos grasp how out of touch with reality they really are. I have to say, having read the post before it was deleted, I was shocked at how ignorant it was, even though I brace for something really asinine every time I read one of his posts. To delete it just adds cowardice to the list of things I've already found offensive.
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I note that NORMAL people would have DUCKED. People running a TV show apparently have different priorities.
From what I have read, the camera man did duck. He held the camera at arm's length above his head to get video. Somehow, the sound man got hung up in the vestibule and the situation went bad before he could get out. The bad guy tried to escape through the same vestibule.
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If we are lucky he will have suffered enough shame that he quits posting here altogether. I doubt that will happen, since rarely do over-inflated egos grasp how out of touch with reality they really are. I have to say, having read the post before it was deleted, I was shocked at how ignorant it was, even though I brace for something really asinine every time I read one of his posts. To delete it just adds cowardice to the list of things I've already found offensive.
Excuse me - I believe we need more opinions, not less.
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Excuse me - I believe we need more opinions, not less.
^^^ This.
There is one member of this forum I can NOT stand. I won't name names (I think SFG is the only person that knows... if he even remembers heh) - but even though I don't like them, they do bring more / different view points on things.
If there's someone's posts here ya don't like, ya can always call them your crazy uncle and move on.
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Excuse me - I believe we need more opinions, not less.
Opinions are one thing. The scolding, berating, pontificating and know it all attitude that spews forth from him are totally different.
My $0.02
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Opinions are one thing. The scolding, berating, pontificating and know it all attitude that spews forth from him are totally different.
My $0.02
How is it different? An opinion that cannot be expressed is not an opinion, it is a thought, and of no value to anyone else. There are areas on this planet where you keep your thoughts to yourself or you are punished, or shot.
Part of liberty is allowing those with whom you strongly disagree the same rights of expression that you enjoy. Otherwise, if divergent opinions are suppressed it won't be long before YOUR opinions are suppressed.
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There are areas on this planet where you keep your thoughts to yourself or you are punished, or shot.
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I'm sorry but dragging the Obama Administration into this is clearly getting off topic. ;D
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It was once said, "I hear there are divisions among you, for it must be, so that those which are proved may be made manifest."
Post that are shall we say less than factual or those that present advice that clearly goes against the norm are excellent opportunities to set the record straight and offer correction for those who chose to avail themselves of it.
Just my humble opinion.
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Grand Jury results out yet ?