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Author Topic: COPS in Omaha  (Read 9731 times)

Offline unfy

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Re: COPS in Omaha
« Reply #60 on: August 28, 2014, 06:40:35 PM »
Just to add my two cents about the 'should have know better' stuff...

Shooting of the bad guy I don't have any problems with.

He was committing a crime.  (this is critical).

He brandished an object that looked and acted like a firearm in a manner that is consistent with how a firearm is used.  (this is critical)

Even if it was a solid chunk of wood painted black... there's grounds for deadly force IMHO.
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Offline 2550sx

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Re: COPS in Omaha
« Reply #61 on: August 28, 2014, 06:59:14 PM »
You need to get off your "I am so freakin smart and know everything nobody is as great as me" high horse for once and quit being a douche.
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Offline farmerbob

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Offline RedDot

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Re: COPS in Omaha
« Reply #63 on: August 28, 2014, 10:03:04 PM »
Jeremy has this mostly right.  I too am stretching my memory to recall much detail of the bill.   There was some debate on how this could affect CHP holders.  After evaluating the bill it did not appear to have any impact on the use of force laws.   Our issue with the bill was with definitions of firearms being changed.

Also what I remember.  I felt like the wording of the bill was too loose and open to wide interpretation.  It didn't seem to focus on defining what constitutes a weapon during the commission of a crime , but rather on just a broad definition of a "weapon' being anything a person could feel threatened by. 

Offline Mudinyeri

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Re: COPS in Omaha
« Reply #64 on: August 29, 2014, 08:24:08 AM »
Here's the thread discussing the legislation:

http://nebraskafirearms.org/forum/index.php/topic,10941.0.html

It's a slippery slope calling things something that they're not.

Offline Gary

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Re: COPS in Omaha
« Reply #65 on: August 30, 2014, 09:46:31 AM »
We seem to have lost our Andy's and Mayberry's.



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« Last Edit: August 30, 2014, 10:16:10 AM by Gary »

Offline zofoman

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Re: COPS in Omaha
« Reply #66 on: August 30, 2014, 10:21:16 AM »
Gary, you ask a lot of questions.  Count the question marks. 
So my question to you is...what is the point of your last post?

Then there is this statement:
"I was not there, but the deadly force used against this punk, and the way it was done, sounds off to me."

"Experts" who were not there can speculate and hypothesize all they want after the fact.   When all is said and done, it changes nothing.   


I now see Gary changed his mind as he edited out a bunch of things.   As Emily Litella used to say...."Never mind."
« Last Edit: August 30, 2014, 10:26:34 AM by zofoman »
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Offline 66bigblock

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Re: COPS in Omaha
« Reply #67 on: August 30, 2014, 10:34:07 AM »
I was going to say "drunk post" when I first read Garys rambling speech.  But I checked the time and it was 9 in the morning.

who knows.


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I carry a gun because a cop is too heavy.  I carry a lot of ammo because I cant run very fast.

Offline AAllen

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Re: COPS in Omaha
« Reply #68 on: August 30, 2014, 10:51:43 AM »
Gary got to fisk this because there is too much misinformation in it, and some that I agree with but feel the need to divide the two.

First, the police have not released a round count for how many rounds were fired.  This number of thirty is what one news agency was reporting, initially others were saying 20 etc.

Why did the police go in instead of waiting; they saw the criminal point the gun to the cashiers head like he was going to fire, at that point they broke contain and entered.  There were two entrances into the building the one with the vestibule where the sound person was shot and another.  One officer went in through the vestibule area (followed by the cameraman and sound engineer) and immediately worked his way into the middle of the room, the other officers came in through the other door.  I believe that the decision to enter the building when the officers felt that the cashier was in immanent danger was the correct one with the information they had at that time.  Unlike you or me in a self defense situation they have a duty to do so to try to protect innocent life.

Point being made, this is the criminals fault not the cops.

First, the police have not released a round count for how many rounds were fired.  This number of thirty is what one news agency was reporting, initially others were saying 20 etc.  While moving and shooting at a moving object hitting that object is very difficult, add to that the stress of being shot at while doing so...I think this is exactly what a couple of other trainers around here talk about when they talk about training to fire under stress and that accuracy etc. goes down.  Your point that this event is something that us concealed carriers can learn from is correct, it shows the importance of this type of training.

Once the criminal pointed the gun at the officers and started to fire the decision was made, by the criminal, the police must return fire.  What else can they do when in close quarters with no cover or concealment, it automatically becomes move and shoot your life is the most important issue at that point.  I agree with your general premise of knowing what is behind what you are shooting at etc. but in this situation they were correct in moving and shooting until the threat was ended.  This criminal did not care about the public and had this been a real gun could have just gone around shooting people at random, the police have a duty to stop this there.

Next this exchange happened very quickly, just a matter of seconds.  During this exchange the criminal moved from where the officer had a good backstop (cement walls of the building) toward the door and windows, it was at this door that the sound engineer was trapped behind.  This movement by the criminal would have covered about ten yards before he exited the building.

Next the Liability Waiver, another point made by an ill-informed news station.  It has already been shown that this information is false, the crew had another week on their shooting contract.  This will not cost taxpayers.

The COPS crew following the police in, I'm torn on this issue.  I will point out the crew trains to do this (even more training than the police do annually) and know the dangers and takes the protective measures they feel they must.  This stuff is covered in the shows contract with the cities they film in and I'm certain they will be reviewing this now.

Now points I agree with (in general), yes the letting criminals out of jail is a problem.  They are not "rehabilitated" in reality they have just been made more violent; recidivism rates, like violent crime rates, are much too high and we as a society must find an answer to this.

Militarization of the police is another issue that I would generally agree with you on, but I don't see where it has anything to do with this case.  If it had been Andy and Barney from Mayberry there the only difference is that there only would have been seven shots fired because the police ran out of rounds at that point.  Andy got off all six of his and Barney finally would have gotten the ability to shoot his one round.

And this was an all around bad deal that got one criminal (actually two there was another arrest) off the street and yes it would have been better if it went through the courts, but the decision for it to end this way was made by the criminal.

Well I guess that Gary took down his post while I was typing this, but I am going to leave it here because it addresses several issues that keep coming up.  At this point there is no reason to believe that any officer did anything illegal or against policy and procedure.  These officers (and the film crew) did their jobs and we need to support them in this difficult time.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2014, 10:55:12 AM by AAllen »

Offline bullit

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Re: COPS in Omaha
« Reply #69 on: August 30, 2014, 12:09:13 PM »
AAllen ... I will have to point out one GLARING error in your post .... Sheriff Andy Taylor never carried...  :)

Offline farmerbob

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Re: COPS in Omaha
« Reply #70 on: August 30, 2014, 12:21:44 PM »
And Gary only has one bullet which he keeps in his shirt pocket.
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Offline Gunscribe

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Re: COPS in Omaha
« Reply #71 on: August 30, 2014, 03:44:04 PM »
 Bullit, there were at least two episodes when Andy went strapped.
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Offline wallace11bravo

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Re: COPS in Omaha
« Reply #72 on: August 30, 2014, 04:19:57 PM »
You guys willing to shoot folks with toy guns, lets talk after you shoot someone holding one, and let me know how that is working out for you. 

Worked out just fine for me.

Offline Randy

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Re: COPS in Omaha
« Reply #73 on: August 30, 2014, 04:34:34 PM »
We seem to have lost our Andy's and Mayberry's.



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Gary,
From posting how you would disassemble your Glock if being pulled over by the Police.
To posting one of the questions and answer from the official NE CHP test.
Including your latest post which you have edited after the fact to try to save some dignity.

Just three examples of your thoughtlessness being demonstrated on this Forum.

You sir are just simply plum full of it.
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Offline Chris C

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Re: COPS in Omaha
« Reply #74 on: August 30, 2014, 06:30:53 PM »
Quote
You guys willing to shoot folks with toy guns, lets talk after you shoot someone holding one, and let me know how that is working out for you.

It's too bad this was the only quote captured before it was deleted. 

In a course I attended taught by (no disrespect to the instructors on here) someone who has a hell of a lot more knowledge and standing throughout the firearm community world wide than anyone on here and there is plenty of case law that already exists where this is covered.  Same with criminals painting flash suppressors or the end of the barrel of a real gun orange to exonerate such nonsense. 

Offline Kodiak

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Re: COPS in Omaha
« Reply #75 on: August 30, 2014, 06:41:34 PM »
Scariest thing is that he's teaching others this same mindset

Offline NE Bull

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Re: COPS in Omaha
« Reply #76 on: August 30, 2014, 06:45:53 PM »
I'm not going to go all admin here, but can we keep this thread on track.

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Offline JTH

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Re: COPS in Omaha
« Reply #77 on: September 04, 2014, 11:24:08 AM »
In a course I attended taught by (no disrespect to the instructors on here) someone who has a hell of a lot more knowledge and standing throughout the firearm community world wide than anyone on here and there is plenty of case law that already exists where this is covered.  Same with criminals painting flash suppressors or the end of the barrel of a real gun orange to exonerate such nonsense. 

No disrespect felt.  While some of the people here (among all of us, not merely among the instructors) have a significant amount of knowledge, skill, and experience, there are always people that have more.

And yes, contrary to what Gary has implied/suggested, there IS a significant amount of case law and specific LEO-department-approved (meaning:  lawyer-approved) procedures regarding "objects that look like firearms" and how to deal with them---which means that citizens defending themselves in the same manner will also be able to defend their actions in court.  Chris C is exactly correct. 

As always----I wish police officers had better training in the skills needed for use of force.  However, given the facts that I've seen regarding this case, the outcome doesn't surprise me, and I do NOT think that officers made poor choices or did anything for which they should be accused.  That opinion may change given new information---but for the moment, given the training they had, the situation as described, and the actions as stated--they acted in accordance with departmental policy and training, they did what they were supposed to do, and there was unfortunately a tragic accident at the time.

I note that NORMAL people would have DUCKED.  People running a TV show apparently have different priorities. 

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Offline Gunscribe

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Re: COPS in Omaha
« Reply #78 on: September 04, 2014, 12:06:17 PM »
+10 JT

I would also add that in times of economic stress and dwindling budgets one of the first things cut or reduced is firearms training. Police and Sheriff's departments all over the country are having as hard a time buying ammo as the average citizen.

We have had a paid order in for 12,000 rounds of .357 Sig and 3000 rounds of 40 S&W for more than a year. It has only been in the last few months that it is starting to trickle in 500 to 1000 rounds at a time. Because of the shortage the state has reduced the number of rounds required for yearly qualification.

Of course they have also increased the times to qualify on each stage as well. Many instructors are referring to the new Qualification requirements as "No Cop left behind".
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Offline 00BUCK

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Re: COPS in Omaha
« Reply #79 on: September 04, 2014, 06:19:16 PM »
If we are lucky he will have suffered enough shame that he quits posting here altogether. I doubt that will happen, since rarely do over-inflated egos grasp how out of touch with reality they really are. I have to say, having read the post before it was deleted, I was shocked at how ignorant it was, even though I brace for something really asinine every time I read one of his posts. To delete it just adds cowardice to the list of things I've already found offensive.