NFOA MEMBERS FORUM
General Categories => General Firearm Discussion => Topic started by: RobertH on February 13, 2015, 08:50:18 PM
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ATF is looking to reclassify "armor piercing" ammo, like the M855 and SS109 ammo... all because of AR-pistols. first the Sig brace and now this.... sneaky back door anti-gun rulings. but there is a comment period. it ends March 16, 2015.
the NFOA needs to send them a comment. i will be working on my comments as well.
read ATF release here: http://www.atf.gov/sites/default/files/assets/Library/Notices/atf_framework_for_determining_whether_certain_projectiles_are_primarily_intended_for_sporting_purposes.pdf (http://www.atf.gov/sites/default/files/assets/Library/Notices/atf_framework_for_determining_whether_certain_projectiles_are_primarily_intended_for_sporting_purposes.pdf)
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Can we work up a literal line-by-line reading of the actual US Code and show them that they are COMPLETELY outside the law on this? I'm working on one, but my legalese isn't as sharp as some folks around here.
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In spite of its imperfections, the Heller decision should have made it clear, for those who hadn't already known, that the 2nd Amendment is not about hunting: the right is to keep and bear ARMS. This makes all sporting purpose language in any gun control law, including the '68 GCA, ILLEGAL. Getting that language removed is the critical path in any effort to defend the right to keep and bear arms. It would do much to solve the current problem this thread is about and other problems too. Anything we do that does not address that root problem will be at best a bandaid.
The Heller decision makes much reference to arms being useful to a militia that would allow the people to defend themselves from a tyrannical government. This is an obvious purpose of the right even without their mention of it. If the American people ever do have to defend themselves against such a government, or an entity like the UN for example, armor-piercing bullets would be an important part of their arsenal. If the purpose (or a purpose) of the right is to allow the people to have the means to defend themselves against a government force, a law that has a stated purpose of keeping American citizens from having that ability ought to be illegal. They can't legally say that law-abiding citizens can't have a certain type of bullet by virtue of that bullet giving the people the ability to fight government agents, i.e., the police in this case.
Of course there's the way it ought to be and there's the way it is. Parts of the Heller decision are badly written and allow usurpations that should be illegal. And many Americans are more than willing to give up parts of their freedom that they have been led to believe don't matter to them. But those who seek to defend our Second Amendment rights should not give in to such things. If there is a right of the people to keep and bear arms, and the reason for that right is that armed people can better resist tyranny, then weapons suited to that purpose should be available to us.
There has to be such a thing as a reasonable restriction on a Constitutional right, but what is being done these days in the name of gun control is very far onto the unreasonable side of any realistic definition of what is reasonable. And laws based on the cop killer bullet lie are a case in point.
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Does anyone have a link to the site to make a comment on this to ATF?
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VI. PUBLIC PARTICIPATION
ATF will carefully consider all comments, as appropriate, received on or before March 16, 2015, and will give comments received after that date the same consideration if it is practical to do so, but assurance of consideration cannot be given except as to comments received on or before March 16, 2015. ATF will not acknowledge receipt of comments.
Submit comments in any of three ways (but do not submit the same comments multiple times or by more than one method):
? ATF website: APAComments@atf.gov. Follow the instructions for submitting comments.
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The next step will be reclassification of weapons that can exceed 500 meters with high accuracy, i.e., sniper equipment. They'll write regs to outlaw combinations of rifles, scopes and bullets that can be used as such, "to protect law officers" (or the Library of Congress's SWAT team, or the EPA's SWAT team, or the BLM SWAT team, etc...)
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VI. PUBLIC PARTICIPATION
ATF will carefully consider all comments, as appropriate, received on or before March 16, 2015, and will give comments received after that date the same consideration if it is practical to do so, but assurance of consideration cannot be given except as to comments received on or before March 16, 2015. ATF will not acknowledge receipt of comments.
Submit comments in any of three ways (but do not submit the same comments multiple times or by more than one method):
? ATF website: APAComments@atf.gov. Follow the instructions for submitting comments.
That's an email address.
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That's an email address.
i think thats how we get to comment.
remember: be nice, courteous, how it will impact you (or the economy, etc) and provide facts if possible.
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The next step will be reclassification of weapons that can exceed 500 meters with high accuracy, i.e., sniper equipment. They'll write regs to outlaw combinations of rifles, scopes and bullets that can be used as such, "to protect law officers" (or the Library of Congress's SWAT team, or the EPA's SWAT team, or the BLM SWAT team, etc...)
I would expect something like that to have followed a ban on so-called assault weapons if that attempt had not had such strong resistance, because all guns kill efficiently, each in their own way. They went after handguns with the slogan Saturday night special (and failed). Ammo with the cop-killer-bullet lie (this scam is still ongoing). State-of-the-art materials with the plastic gun lie.
Snipers killed JFK and MLK, and the Texas Tower incident was the deadliest mass shooting until Virginia Tech in '07, so I can see a big lie campaign aimed at what are now called legitimate sporting purpose deer and target rifles, but will be renamed sniper rifles. I'd expect them to go for something like minimum group size at some range, which could be measured by government agents, maybe because beyond a certain range the Secret Service can't have complete control or something. Or maybe deer hunting should only be done with black powder rifles, because if you can't get it done with one shot you shouldn't be hunting (like they said about getting it done with 6 during the first assault weapon campaign). Or long range rifles have to be kept locked up in a government armory, to be checked out for sighting in and deer season, with all ammo accounted for (I actually had a discussion with a liberal several years ago where he proposed that idea; he was being serious, and was trying to show how open-minded he was about gun control and hunting).
And how will they go after shotguns? Well, any shotgun can be converted to a "sawed-off" shotgun, which I guess is so terribly deadly that you can go to prison just for having one.
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While the ATF does the frontal assault on the 2nd Amendment, Obama opened a second front with "Operation Chokepoint".
Wikipedia it.
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We have to hit this hard.
As already stated, being a mouthy jerk will not help our cause. Be professional, courteous, and polite. "LOL YOU GUYS SUCK F U" doesn't make us look good.
We need to start a legislative wave to stop the ATF from creating laws, circumventing the legislative process. This is unacceptable.
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From Widener's:
DUE TO THE OVERWHELMING DEMAND FOR M855 AMMUNITION AND COMPONENTS, WE ARE CURRENTLY AT LEAST 7-14 DAYS BEHIND IN SHIPPING. Also, we have a small amount of IMI M855 ammunition inbound (coming this week Feb,18) for $539.00 / 1200 rounds + shipping. We believe this MAY be the last of IMI M855. We could have sold it all to one buyer for more than $539.00, but we are going to sell it to our customers with LIMIT ONE CASE PER CUSTOMER.
Regarding M855, we are not sure what is going to happen. If there is no ban, then prices may drop, but not for a while, (if ever). Frankly, this has caused another round of panic buying and we are trying our best to fill the orders. A limited amount of Lake City XM855 is also inbound and will be for sale upon arrival.
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The comment period for the ban is over. The only opportunity for comment, at this point, is on how M855 and SS109 will be removed from the civilian market.
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The comment period for the ban is over. The only opportunity for comment, at this point, is on how M855 and SS109 will be removed from the civilian market.
The comment period is over MARCH 16th, not Feb. 16th.
VI. PUBLIC PARTICIPATION
ATF will carefully consider all comments, as appropriate, received on or before March 16, 2015, and will give comments received after that date the same consideration if it is practical to do so, but assurance of consideration cannot be given except as to comments received on or before March 16, 2015. ATF will not acknowledge receipt of comments.
Submit comments in any of three ways (but do not submit the same comments multiple times or by more than one method):
? ATF website: APAComments@atf.gov. Follow the instructions for submitting comments.
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Does somebody have a talking point guide on this? I would like to send a comment to the ATF, but just don't have enough understanding to be able to successfully say anything more than "I don't appreciate your attempt to take my ammunition away because you found out how hard it would be to take my gun away."
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The comment period is over MARCH 16th, not Feb. 16th.
See my original statement. The comment period on the ban is over. Comments on the implementation of the ban are being accepted until March 16, 2015.
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See my original statement. The comment period on the ban is over. Comments on the implementation of the ban are being accepted until March 16, 2015.
Yeah, my mistake. I'm afraid letters will be useless at this point... :(
also, FBHO
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This is what I sent, but I see now it is too late for comment.
Well they got this anyway...
As a hunting enthusiast and firearms sportsman, I am opposed to your seemingly arbitrary proposal to ban certain ammunition which has been already exempted by federal law from the so called “armor piercing” ban.
M855 and ss109 ammo has long been the standard ammo for the modern sporting rifle. Changing this exemption will place an undue burden on the millions of legal gun owners in this country and harm the various manufacturers of said ammunition.
Also the burden on the legitimate consumer, lawful and legal gun owners, will be onerous economically. Prices have already risen as a result of the mere mention of the placing of a ban on this ammunition.
Your own statistics show this ammunition and the types of firearms which use this ammunition are rarely if ever used in crime.
After the removal of the prohibition on many of these types of firearms, your own data indicate crime has actually dropped.
As a citizen of these United States of America, I have a profound love for the constitution and the Bill of Rights of this great country. This is an unfair and unlawful violation of the 2nd Amendment and a gross misapplication of the spirit of the 1968 GCA upon which you are using to base this proposed rule change.
I respectfully ask you to withdraw this proposal and maintain the status quo with regards to this issue.
Thank you very much.
Sincerely,
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Yeah, my mistake. I'm afraid letters will be useless at this point... :(
also, FBHO
I went back a read the proposal gain and am fairly certain MARCH 16 is the valid date for comment. Send those letters.
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Here's a good explanation, I think:
http://youtu.be/6PaIIChRMBw
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I went back a read the proposal gain and am fairly certain MARCH 16 is the valid date for comment. Send those letters.
Yes, it is ... for comment on implementation of removal of the ammunition from the civilian market. Arguably, I guess you could say that this is the real teeth of the "ban" (rescinding of the exemption).
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ATF under the most anti-freedom and anti-American president in history will not concern itself with anything patriots have to say about this illegal edict of theirs. They know the truth and they knew it all along; they know that what they do is illegal and based in lies. Sending those traitors a letter is like sending a letter to ISIS asking them to please stop beheading Christians.
I sent an email to Senators Fischer and Sasse, and my Congressman Jeff Fortenberry, asking them to do anything they could to stop this act of criminal aggression being committed by Obama's ATF, and nicely reminding them that the voters did not give Republicans control of both houses of Congress because we wanted them to let Obama and his team of traitors continue breaking the law.
I don't know what Congress might be able to do but I assume it has some kind of oversight authority, and can bring bureaucrats in before a committee, and of course funding can be cut off. If enough patriots remind their representatives of how important these illegal gun control edicts are to us maybe the Republicans will take a stand and do something. We should remind them of anti-gun politicians like McCain and Romney who will go down in history as big losers, partly because they did not stand up for our Second Amendment rights. An email to the RNC might be a good idea too.
The letter posted by Denman Shooter includes very good talking points that I would include.
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I have seen many good reasons put forth to recommend that the ATF not reclassify M855, one I have not seen
is the reduced muzzle velocity of the round when fired from a pistol length barrel, making it less effective for its intended purpose.
Just a thought.
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I have seen many good reasons put forth to recommend that the ATF not reclassify M855, one I have not seen
is the reduced muzzle velocity of the round when fired from a pistol length barrel, making it less effective for its intended purpose.
Just a thought.
That's a good one. It would be interesting to see the results of some tests demonstrating the reduction in penetration capacity with the reduced muzzle velocity.
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I haven't been following this issue very closely. The problem is that M855 can be fired from pistols? I don't understand.
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AR15 pistols to be exact. Its back door gun control. We gotta hit up our Federal Reps. We control congress, so why is this crapstill be pulled?!
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AR15 pistols to be exact. Its back door gun control. We gotta hit up our Federal Reps. We control congress, so why is this crapstill be pulled?!
Robert, it still happening cause nobody in Congress has balls to stand up against obama. They don't want to be a racist.
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Yea, i know. :(
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If you read through the notice the ATF posted, the basis they claim for banning M855 ammunition is that it can be fired in a easily concealed handgun and will penetrate body armor and this represents a potential threat to law enforcement.
The first flaw in their argument is that body armor is rated as to what it will stop. To the best of my knowledge, no one manufactures concealable armor (what law enforcement wears) that is rated to stop 5.56 regardless of bullet composition. This also goes for any of the handguns that have been chambered in a rifle caliber.
The second flaw is the handguns that fire this ammunition are easily concealable. While it is possible to conceal one of these handguns, I would not call it easy, it is just easier then concealing a rifle in the same caliber.
What I am concerned about is that by using this argument, what else can be banned in the interest of law enforcement safety?
John K
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First we need to understand what the laws are on AP ammo, from the NRA: The "existing laws" were adopted in 1986 and prohibit the manufacture and importation, for private use, of handgun bullets made of special, hard metals and (in a 1994 amendment) specially-jacketed lead bullets. These bullets were invented for use by law enforcement and military personnel. NRA helped draft the 1986 provisions and didn`t object to the 1994 amendment. (;18 U.S.C. 922(a)(7) and (8 ), and (b)(5), and 921(a)(17)(B) and (C))
As this quote says Congress has specifically outlawed the production of AP "handgun" ammo, and limited its ability to be sold. In doing this Congress has set a definition to what is Armor Piercing Handgun Ammo, specifically it must has a solid core made of one of several listed metals (M855 does not) or have a jacket made of certain materials (M855 does not have these) or have a jacket that is over a certain percentage of the bullets total weight (the jacket of M855 does not). So even though the ATF had M855 on an excepted list it appears that it does not meet the specific requirements in the law, so the ATF should not have the authority to ban it as AP Handgun Ammo.
This comes from several articles that I have read over the last several days, too much reading trying to understand, and I may be wrong on these points. But if I am would someone please tell me where I am, I am trying to understand the authority the ATF is claiming.
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My understanding is that the law says any handgun ammo that has a steel core is AP for purposes of the act. I think the ATF reading is quite possibly correct as far as the definition goes.
However, under the act, the AG can exempt ammo that would otherwise be banned if the AG finds it is "primarily intended to be used for sporting purposes." M855 was originally classified as AP and made exempt by the AG in 1986 after the act passed.
Now, BATFE has decided that M855 is not "primarily intended to be used for sporting purposes." When the AG makes that determination, the ammo is then illegal to manufacture, sell, or import. They say that AR pistols are more prevalent now, so 5.56 ammo is more useable in pistols. That really should have no bearing on what the ammo is primarily intended for.
It is a ridiculous way for the AG to stick it to gun owners by only reducing the supply of cheap(ish) surplus ammo. It will have no impact on crime or officer safety. It's Holder's parting gift to gun owners. Oh, and while he may be on board with this, POTUS can't do anything about it. The statute gives the authority to the AG.
The AG has the statutory authority to do this. The only ways to stop it are 1) a lawsuit challenging the constitutionality of either the AP ban or the AG's decision, or 2) an act of congress which, even if it could pass, would never be signed.
The bottom line is that M855 manufacture, commercial sales, and imports will very likely be stopped until we get a new POTUS with an AG that will re-institute the exemption.
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Is authority is to only exempt not to add to the list so the thing that needs to happen is a suit that scientifically breaks down the arguments as illegitimate as to why it was listed as AP to begin with. Then it is out of the hands of the AG.
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Husker fan. My understanding is the same, along with several other metals like depleted uranium a solid steel core would fit the definition of an AP round, but from what I have been reading M855 has a steel tip and lead core. Even if it was steal and lead combo for the core it would not fit the explicit discription of solid steel core.
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You are right that M855 has a steel tip. We are getting into what is the definition of "core." ATF seems to say it is any component inside the jacket. We'd say the core is everything inside the jacket.
We could use one of the companies with a pending exemption request to be denied and then sue to sort it out. That could still take us out to January 2017.
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The language explicitly states entirely of or a combination of just those components. So just the fact that there is lead in the core should exclude it from the list.
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Those in the BATFE can, and do, interpret anything they want in any way they care to. Letters from a few thousand pissed-off gun owners will not change that fact.
Our only hope at this point is to get a person in the White House who actually respects the original meaning of the 2nd Amendment and will appoint people to AG, etc. that will do the same and roll back a few of these ridiculous restrictions.
I'm not holding my breath. :(
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I've seen it pointed out a few times that these bullets won't penetrate any body armor that can't be penetrated by other and still legal (so far) 5.56 bullets. And the shorter barrel of (what is legally defined as) a pistol has to make them even less capable of penetrating armor. Given that and other considerations, there is no doubt that ATF bureaucrats are using a law that never should have been written, to outlaw as much ammo as they can get away with outlawing. This is just one more example of Obama and his team of traitors doing as much damage as they can to the Republic before he leaves office.
To whatever extent sporting use language is used in any gun control law, that law is illegal, according to both the Miller and the Heller decisions, because those decisions both made clear that sporting use is not what the right is about. So why is that language still being used?
I want to know if the Republicans who were given control of both houses of Congress are going to just sit back and let this crime be committed. I know their power is limited, but they are not impotent. Unless they choose to be. It's up to us the voters to ask them, because otherwise they would much prefer to just bow down and kiss the hand of those who seek to be our masters.
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The specific wording of what defines "armor piercing" is in my article on Trek Tech Black: http://trektechblack.com/batfe-seeks-ban-m855-ball-ammunition/ (http://trektechblack.com/batfe-seeks-ban-m855-ball-ammunition/)
For those who can't access TT Black, for whatever reason:
the definition of a prohibited “armor piercing” projectile is a “projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely … from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, berylium copper or depleted uranium.”
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Good video with a clear discussion regarding the situation, how we go there and what to do next:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6PaIIChRMBw#t=380 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6PaIIChRMBw#t=380)
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Here is a copy of an email I sent off to our congressional reps. except Ashford from dist. 2, his system wouldn't accept my email because I am out of his district!
This should be of interest to Sen. Fischer as it is contrary to her Sportsman's Act which in part is aimed at avoiding restricting sportsmen's choice in ammunition.
Dear,
I would like to encourage you to contact the ATF in regards to the ATF considering reclassifying M855 Ball ammo on the basis
that it is now possible to use this ammo in pistol configurations of the AR platform.
Firstly, although there are now pistols that can use this ammo I do not see that in itself changing the intended use at manufacture.
Secondly, that ammo fired from a pistol length barrel will have less muzzle velocity than when fired from a carbine or rifle length barrel
rendering it less effective as an AP round.
Furthermore, The Federal Government defines AP ammunition in 18 USC sec. 921(a)(17).
Definition
(17)(A) The term “ammunition” means ammunition or cartridge cases, primers, bullets, or propellent powder designed for use in any firearm.
(B) The term “armor piercing ammunition” means-
(i) a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium; or
(ii) a full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the projectile.
Please note: the bullet (projectile) must have a core made entirely out of the metals listed above, or be a full jacketed bullet with a jacket weighing more than 25% of its overall weight. This means that the SS109/M855 bullets wouldn’t be covered, as their cores are partly steel, and partly lead. Lead isn’t listed in the metals above.
I see this as a direct violation of the 2nd ammendment as well as restricting sportsmen’s ammunition choices – such unnecessary constraints drive up hunting costs, impede participation in shooting sports, and consequently decrease conservation funding thus, it is counter productive to the Sportsman's Act recently introduced by Senator Fischer.
Thanks for your consideration,
Gregg L
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Has the NFOA submitted any comments?
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Has the NFOA submitted any comments?
Not yet Robert, but I'm working on it.
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I haven't seen the NRA position posted here yet so here is a link to it:
https://www.nraila.org/articles/20150218/your-action-urgently-needed-to-prevent-batfe-from-banning-common-rifle-ammunition (https://www.nraila.org/articles/20150218/your-action-urgently-needed-to-prevent-batfe-from-banning-common-rifle-ammunition)
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I just contacted my Congress Reps through their webpages and through the NRA-ILA site. I urge you all to do the same.
Here is what I wrote. I am not a great writer:
I am sending you this email to ask you fight the ban or reclassification of M855 or SS109 ammunition. This ammunition is used widely in competition and plinking nationwide. This is just a backdoor attempt at gun control that would never pass through Congress. I urge you to put a stop to this and tell the BATFE to stop infringing on our rights!
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ATF: Agency for the Termination of Freedom
BATFE: Bolsheviks Allied for the Termination of Freedom for Everyone
Alcohol Tobacco and Firearms: a chain of quick shops in Texas selling everything a man needs.
Bimbos Alcohol Tobacco Firearms and Eats: a super ATF store.
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There's a whitehouse.gov petition everyone needs to sign here:
https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/stop-batfe-banning-xm855-ammunition
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http://www.savem855.com/Default.aspx (http://www.savem855.com/Default.aspx)
Easy way to send a fax to the ATF, Sen. Fischer, and your Congresscritter stating your opposition to the ATF's actions.
Another good article: http://www.forbes.com/sites/frankminiter/2015/02/24/why-is-the-atf-moving-to-ban-common-rifle-ammo/ (http://www.forbes.com/sites/frankminiter/2015/02/24/why-is-the-atf-moving-to-ban-common-rifle-ammo/)
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http://insider.foxnews.com/2015/02/26/goodlatte-slams-atf-proposal-ban-ar-15-ammo (http://insider.foxnews.com/2015/02/26/goodlatte-slams-atf-proposal-ban-ar-15-ammo)
This is a story from Fox about a patriot in the House who's doing his best to defend his country from this gun control aggression being committed by traitors. We should make sure our representatives are part of his effort. I haven't contacted mine yet but I will.
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Yesterday I received an email from Congressman Jeff Fortenberry. He stated that he would be signing the joint letter that members of the House of Representatives will be sending to the ATF objecting to the ban on M855 ammunition.
Has anyone heard back form Senator Fischer? Will she be taking a stand on this issue? It seems to me that pressure from our elected officials will have the most impact on the ATF.
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Yesterday I received an email from Congressman Jeff Fortenberry. He stated that he would be signing the joint letter that members of the House of Representatives will be sending to the ATF objecting to the ban on M855 ammunition.
Has anyone heard back form Senator Fischer? Will she be taking a stand on this issue? It seems to me that pressure from our elected officials will have the most impact on the ATF.
Greg, glad you heard back from Fortenberry. I've written to our congressmen and women a lot, and since the election, haven't heard anything back except the the monthly Deb Fischer newsletter. Guess they only reply during the election years.
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Greg, glad you heard back from Fortenberry. I've written to our congressmen and women a lot, and since the election, haven't heard anything back except the the monthly Deb Fischer newsletter. Guess they only reply during the election years.
I usually hear back from Fortenberry within about 2-3 weeks. He must not like you, did you vote for his opponent? :D
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Did anyone else see the story on 10/11 news about this? Link: http://www.1011now.com/news/headlines/Proposed-Ammunition-Ban-Upsets-Gun-Users-294539741.html
I thought the guy from Liberty Arms did a pretty good job. Though, I think the story could have been more interesting if they had discussed the merit (or lack thereof) of the ATF's decision; instead of its economic impact on gun stores.
Also, the quote from NAGV was hilariously... Something something "hybrid guns" -- whatever that is.
Perhaps it's another thread, but how do we get the NFOA on the news stations' "call for a quote" phone list??
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I usually hear back from Fortenberry within about 2-3 weeks. He must not like you, did you vote for his opponent? :D
Dave, for the Fortenberry twice. The polling station had a VOGO. Same thing as a BOGO but with Votes.
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Fortenbery is more of a do-nothing than Lee Terry was. ::)
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Here's the thing. The laws are clearly written, and we clearly can argue logically presenting the fact and evidence needed to show our case. And yet, the ATF still just does what it wants beside logic. That is where the issue is.
Does anyone know what the motivation behind this is? Is it Obama directing them? Or is there someone sitting up there just thinking up crap for some reason?
Im kinda wondering, like he said in that video that is posted, perhaps a lot of surplus ammo is about to be dumped on us and they want to stop it? Is that it?
I will tell you I see a lot of over reaching things going on that occur for no reason in things that have been around for decades with nothing to prompt changes, here are a few:
-Banning of 2 seater ultra light aircraft
-Legislation against RC airplanes (AKA drones)
-41P
-Now this M855 crap
I do wonder if it is Obama directing this crap or if it is just the mindset his administration is setting for all branches of the government.
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Fortenbery is more of a do-nothing than Lee Terry was. ::)
AMEN BROTHER. ...'Tis why I am leary of Sasse ....
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Just an FYI, SG Ammo just sold out over ONE HUNDRED 1000rd. cases of Wolf .223 fmj in 23 minutes this afternoon. In fact, they are sold out on all .223/5.56 that is under $14.95/20rds. :o
This run on .223/5.56 ammo may be worse than .22lr. :(
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According to GunBot.net there is plenty of .223/5.56 and 7.62x39. Fairly cheap too.
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Gunbot is fubar on .223/5.56. When you click on 90% of the links under 50cpr that it shows are in-stock, they're not.
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Most of the .223/5.56 at Cabela's says not available on line. Wal Mart was cleaned out in a day. I felt like the panic was just subsiding. Only good thing is I really don't need any .223.
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Most of the .223/5.56 at Cabela's says not available on line. Wal Mart was cleaned out in a day. I felt like the panic was just subsiding. Only good thing is I really don't need any .223.
Is this all 223 or just the green tip stuff?
Edit:
So I'm just trying to understand this all... Its only green tipped steel pen stuff or does it affect the cheap American eagle and PMC stuff also?
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Its starts with all 223, then all ar parts and ars, then heads to 9mm and finally 22lr.
When you figure out why let me know. This is why on facebook I see someone selling overpriced 22 or 223 or a handgun, I tell them where to stick it.
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Is this all 223 or just the green tip stuff?
Edit:
So I'm just trying to understand this all... Its only green tipped steel pen stuff or does it affect the cheap American eagle and PMC stuff also?
At this time the ban only includes M855/SS109 designated 62 grain 5.56x45 ammo that has a partial tungsten steel core. The run on that ammo has overflowed to all .223 and 5.56x45 "plinking ammo" as well as more expensive varieties that are normally up to and even some over 50 cents per round.
demand has waaaaayyyy surpassed supply, much like the .22lr situation started out.
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Is this all 223 or just the green tip stuff?
Edit:
So I'm just trying to understand this all... Its only green tipped steel pen stuff or does it affect the cheap American eagle and PMC stuff also?
To clarify, I think the reason they aren't selling it online is because of the huge sudden demand. People are grabbing up all they can out of fear. Some 5.56 could be added to the cart and hunting type bullets.
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I still haven't seen an official NFOA response to the ATF or our congress critters. Did I miss it?
The Georgia Carry group has a GREAT open letter that can be found here:
http://gunssavelives.net/blog/gun-laws/georgia-gun-rights-group-tears-apart-atfs-proposed-m855-ban-with-their-comments/
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The Omaha Weird Herald has a story on this today. I guess they didn't bother to ask the NFOA for it's comments. ::)
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If you folks really want to see what we are up against as in anti-gunners and downright idiots, I suggest you read the OWH's Facebook post about the above mentioned article. Oy vey!!
https://www.facebook.com/WorldHerald?fref=nf (https://www.facebook.com/WorldHerald?fref=nf)
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If you folks really want to see what we are up against as in anti-gunners and downright idiots, I suggest you read the OWH's Facebook post about the above mentioned article. Oy vey!!
https://www.facebook.com/WorldHerald?fref=nf (https://www.facebook.com/WorldHerald?fref=nf)
FFS...I feel stupider just for attempting to read some of those comments.
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At this point, with it appearing that the ATF is making up whatever standards they want to achieve their goals
(as apposed to honoring the Constitution, or even following the law as it is written) does 7N6 ammo banned
last year, or the steel core 7.62x39 Russian made ammo banned in 1994, really meet the the standards as set
forth by law? Just wondering.
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At this point, with it appearing that the ATF is making up whatever standards they want to achieve their goals
(as apposed to honoring the Constitution, or even following the law as it is written) does 7N6 ammo banned
last year, or the steel core 7.62x39 Russian made ammo banned in 1994, really meet the the standards as set
forth by law? Just wondering.
Don't know about the 7n6 but the 7.62x39 and 5.45x39 both are constructed the same as the 7.62x54r that is still commonally available. So technically no it does not meet the discription given in the law passed by congress.
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The 7n6 was banned mainly because some idiot submitted a 5.45x39 AK pistol to the ATF for importation to the US.
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The 7n6 was banned mainly because some idiot submitted a 5.45x39 AK pistol to the ATF for importation to the US.
Careful, that is divisive language that the antis love for us to use in keeping us from coming together and reclaiming our rights. No reason we shouldn't have 5.45x39 AK pistols.
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The TV news articles I have seen on this talk about how we feel it is against our second amendment rights. Those that want to add an anti slant add 'to be able to purchase armor piercing ammunition'.
Has anyone seen where they talk about how this is flat out against the definition of armor piercing?
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House letter to the ATF: https://dcpr00gbauvhc.cloudfront.net/sharedmedia/1507341/letter-to-atf-director-jones-apa-framework-final.pdf (https://dcpr00gbauvhc.cloudfront.net/sharedmedia/1507341/letter-to-atf-director-jones-apa-framework-final.pdf)
Signed by Fortenberry, but not by Adrian Smith or Ashford.
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Signed by Fortenberry, but not by Adrian Smith or Ashford.
With penmanship like that how can you tell? :D
Well written and I am interested to hear what the reply will be by end of next week. Is there any weight behind the deadline or can the BATF "blow them off"?
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Posted yesterday from an Attorney who is "in the know"...
I spoke with the ATF today and have been told the following:
Extension has not been granted. Deadline is still March 16 for comments. If and when the deadline is extended, the ATF will post the notice on the website. After the deadline passes, the ATF will respond to comments. There is no set timeline for implementation of the rule.
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SAF Authorizes Court Action If .223 Ammo Ban Is Implemented
BELLEVUE, WA – The Second Amendment Foundation has authorized court action if the proposed ban on .223-caliber ammunition is implemented by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, the foundation’s general counsel has warned in a letter to BATFE Director B. Todd Jones.
Writing for SAF, general counsel Miko Tempski tells Jones, “This proposal is just an attempt to limit firearms rights because the President’s other such attempts have been blocked through constitutional checks and balances on his power.
“Should the BATFE lawlessly proceed on this path,” Tempski warns, “SAF intends to call on those checks and balances to stop the Administration’s executive overreach again.”
Tempski’s three-page letter dissects the BATFE proposal, noting repeatedly that M855 ammunition at the center of this controversy “is not armor piercing pursuant to the definition in the statute.” The federal provisions requires that a cartridge fire a “full jacketed projectile large than .22-caliber designed and intended for use in a handgun…,” or to otherwise be fit for use in a handgun and have a core “entirely constructed” form a specific list of non-lead metals to be prohibited.
Tempski explained that the M855 round does not meet either of these criteria. He said the first definition, “fails immediately as the 5.56 x 45 mm round is not designed and intended for use in a handgun,” and he questioned the ATF’s honesty with regard to the second definition, noting that a “small tip of steel making up less than 1/6th of the projectile cannot be used to claim the bullet or its core are “entirely” steel.
“The proposed framework,” he writes, “intends to define the intended purpose of ammunition based on the availability of certain types of handguns made for it. Such a circular definition is highly illogical in any context.”
The comment period remains open through March 16. People may submit comments to:
Email: APAComments@atf.gov
Fax: (202) 648-9741.
Mail: Denise Brown, Mailstop 6N-602, Office of Regulatory Affairs, Enforcement Programs and Services, Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives, 99 New York Avenue, NE, Washington, DC 20226: ATTN: AP Ammo Comments.
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Probably everyone here gets NRA alerts, but in case someone doesn't, here's a good piece pointing out that a spokesman for the Fraternal Order of Police has further exposed the lie this pending illegal edict is based in.
http://m.washingtonexaminer.com/police-say-ar-15-bullet-up-for-ban-is-not-a-threat-countering-atf-white-house/article/2560964#.VPXltbmeEoA.twitter (http://m.washingtonexaminer.com/police-say-ar-15-bullet-up-for-ban-is-not-a-threat-countering-atf-white-house/article/2560964#.VPXltbmeEoA.twitter)
One thing that bothers me about this entire debate is that no one seems to be talking about the illegality of sporting use language in gun laws. It has been clearly established by the High Court that sporting purpose is not what the right is about: the right is to keep and bear ARMS, not have dangerous toys we can go out and have fun with (because sport, by definition, means something done just for fun).
Even the stated purpose of the law against armor-piercing ammunition is illegal. This is copied from the Wikipedia entry on the Heller Decision:
"(b) The prefatory clause comports with the Court’s interpretation of the operative clause. The “militia” comprised all males physically capable of acting in concert for the common defense. The Antifederalists feared that the Federal Government would disarm the people in order to disable this citizens’ militia, enabling a politicized standing army or a select militia to rule. The response was to deny Congress power to abridge the ancient right of individuals to keep and bear arms, so that the ideal of a citizens’ militia would be preserved. Pp. 22–28."
If the purpose, or a purpose, of the law was to make sure citizens could be capable of fighting a standing army or select militia (like for example the government-armed militias that took part in the Rwanda genocide), then it should be illegal to say that a certain type of bullet is illegal because it gives citizens a capacity to fight government agents, such as a bullet that can or is designed to penetrate body armor worn by police. We are arguing details of this thing when every bit of it is fundamentally flawed and should be thrown out.
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*deleted*
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President Regan the one who banned new machinegun ownership, is also the one who signed the laws against AP handgun ammo. So I guess we can keep blaming the Democrats if we want.
http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/?pid=37785 (http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/?pid=37785)
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President Regan the one who banned new machinegun ownership, is also the one who signed the laws against AP handgun ammo. So I guess we can keep blaming the Democrats if we want.
http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/?pid=37785 (http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/?pid=37785)
I don't like everything Reagan did, but the good he did outweighs the bad. This law was based in a lie from the beginning, sold by the big lie machine called the liberal press. We didn't have cable then and Al Gore hadn't invented the internet yet so countering the big lie campaigns of the liberal press was more problematic then. I don't know if Reagan and his team really did buy the lie the law was based in or if they just caved in to the pressure. The law that was passed and signed by Reagan though had been supposedly fixed by the NRA, which in my opinion also caved in to pressure from the liars in liberal media. Reagan and the NRA should have known that their attempts to fix a law that was fundamentally flawed would likely be betrayed by an anti-gun president down the road but apparently they didn't, or maybe they just thought any such betrayal could be dealt with. None of that matters now though, except to show the importance in not giving in to anti-gun bigots expecting them and their allies in the liberal press to be appeased. What matters today though is not who originally signed this bad law, but how it is being used today by the most anti-freedom president we have ever had.
The law against new machineguns was part of the Firearms Owners Protection Act if I remember right, which was a very good bill that had the machinegun ban added by unscrupulous enemies in Congress. Signing the bill was probably still a good thing, though the ban should have been stripped away first, and I don't know why it wasn't.
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I don't like everything Reagan did, but the good he did outweighs the bad. This law was based in a lie from the beginning, sold by the big lie machine called the liberal press. We didn't have cable then and Al Gore hadn't invented the internet yet so countering the big lie campaigns of the liberal press was more problematic then. I don't know if Reagan and his team really did buy the lie the law was based in or if they just caved in to the pressure. The law that was passed and signed by Reagan though had been supposedly fixed by the NRA, which in my opinion also caved in to pressure from the liars in liberal media. Reagan and the NRA should have known that their attempts to fix a law that was fundamentally flawed would likely be betrayed by an anti-gun president down the road but apparently they didn't, or maybe they just thought any such betrayal could be dealt with. None of that matters now though, except to show the importance in not giving in to anti-gun bigots expecting them and their allies in the liberal press to be appeased. What matters today though is not who originally signed this bad law, but how it is being used today by the most anti-freedom president we have ever had.
The law against new machineguns was part of the Firearms Owners Protection Act if I remember right, which was a very good bill that had the machinegun ban added by unscrupulous enemies in Congress. Signing the bill was probably still a good thing, though the ban should have been stripped away first, and I don't know why it wasn't.
FOPA of 86 included the Hughes Amendment which outlawed new MGs, but it did allow ammo to be shipped to your house and a few other things, but that MG thing still makes me mad. I believe the Hughes Amendment was a last second thing that would allow it to pass and the NRA was ok with it. Another reason i dont like the NRA.
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There might be a new Wrinkle on this too ... check this out.
(as reported today on Cam & Co NRAnews )
http://townhall.com/tipsheet/katiepavlich/2015/03/06/exclusive-atf-has-already-banned-common-at15-green-tip-ammunition-n1966761 (http://townhall.com/tipsheet/katiepavlich/2015/03/06/exclusive-atf-has-already-banned-common-at15-green-tip-ammunition-n1966761)
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interesting article for sure.
So, what does this do to a person that is in possession of green tip once the atf makes it official that it is banned?
66bigblock
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interesting article for sure.
So, what does this do to a person that is in possession of green tip once the atf makes it official that it is banned?
66bigblock
from what i have heard is this: it is illegal to manufacture or import, but you can sell/trade/possess just fine. some states have anti-AP rules.
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There might be a new Wrinkle on this too ... check this out.
(as reported today on Cam & Co NRAnews )
http://townhall.com/tipsheet/katiepavlich/2015/03/06/exclusive-atf-has-already-banned-common-at15-green-tip-ammunition-n1966761 (http://townhall.com/tipsheet/katiepavlich/2015/03/06/exclusive-atf-has-already-banned-common-at15-green-tip-ammunition-n1966761)
Yes the ban is already in place, the comment period is so people can voice their opinion about how it is to take effect. The ATF went around normal procedure to do this and unless a new Attorney General over rules it (they have the ability to create exemptions) or Congress ends the ban on "Cop Killer" (remember the debates from back in the 90's) this will stand.
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There might be a new Wrinkle on this too ... check this out.
(as reported today on Cam & Co NRAnews )
http://townhall.com/tipsheet/katiepavlich/2015/03/06/exclusive-atf-has-already-banned-common-at15-green-tip-ammunition-n1966761 (http://townhall.com/tipsheet/katiepavlich/2015/03/06/exclusive-atf-has-already-banned-common-at15-green-tip-ammunition-n1966761)
I've seen that article several times today in various places. Trek Tech Black reported that the ban was already in place back on February 16th. This is old news.
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Yes, it's already happened. More to follow is my guess. I think I'm through emailing, calling or writing reps in D.C. as I don't believe they can or have the will to truly do anything about it. The enforcers answer to no one but their appointed dept. chiefs and they answer only to the current administration who have made it plain they answer to no one.
If you want an effective letter-writing campaign, gather the names of govt. agents in your local branch offices and bombard them individually. As I see it, these are the people you need to win over and/or influence. The boots you may feel pressing down upon your individual rights and freedoms will not be those of Obama or Holder, but a long line of unremarked agents who hide behind the notion of just doing what their told. In some ways they are more dangerous to our rights than the sycophants and true believers as they may know what they are being ordered to do is wrong yet follow them anyway. Not to try to make some sort of dramatic comparisons, but historically speaking, almost all of the atrocities and injustices of dictatorships are carried out by "Average Joes" with no greater vision than the next paycheck. Scary , huh?
So in the mean time, lawsuits will be filed, judgments rendered, appeals filed and reviewed. I can't help but feel though that the motivations which led to the issuing of the many questionable at best executive orders and rule changes, hold more weight to this administration than the legal processes they were intended to get around in the first place. I'm not giving up on what I believe, but being repeatedly out-flanked would seem to call for a review of tactics.
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interesting article for sure.
So, what does this do to a person that is in possession of green tip once the atf makes it official that it is banned?
66bigblock
Shoot it or hoard it. From the ATF:
"ATF recognizes that this ammunition is widely available to the public. Because it is legally permissible to possess armor piercing ammunition under current law, withdrawing the exemption will not place individuals in criminal possession of armor piercing ammunition."
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Patriots should make this illegal edict part of the next Presidential election, and it should be part of the debate among Republicans during the nomination process. The last few cycles the Republicans made it a point to keep gun control out of the debate, and Obama was more than happy to go along with that. The result was anti-gun Republican nominees, even though gun control is unpopular among rank and file Republicans. In fact even both Bushes were anti-gun, though less so than Obama and Clinton.
A Republican President who is a loyal American can and will overturn this illegal edict more or less immediately on assuming his office. The question is, can we get the Republicans to nominate a loyal American. Toward that end, it is up to us to make gun control a part of the upcoming political debate, because if we don't, the establishment politicians won't either.
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The worst thing for gun owners would be an anti-gun Republican. At least with a Democrat, the Republicans in congress will fight out of partisan self interest. If a Republican like Chrstie floats it, the Republicans in congress probably wouldn't fight it.
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Saw this posted earlier elsewhere, direct from ATF:
http://www.atf.gov/sites/default/files/assets/Library/Publications/notice_of_publishing_error.pdf (http://www.atf.gov/sites/default/files/assets/Library/Publications/notice_of_publishing_error.pdf)
NOTICE OF PUBLISHING ERROR
On Feb. 13, 2015, ATF released for public comment a proposed framework to guide its
determination on what ammunition is "primarily intended for sporting purposes" for purposes of
granting exemptions to the Gun Control Act’s prohibition on armor piecing ammunition. The
posted framework is only a proposal, posted for the purpose of receiving public comment, and no
final determinations have been made.
Media reports have noted that the 2014 ATF Regulation Guide published online does not contain
a listing of the exemptions for armor piercing ammunition, and conclude that the absence of this
listing indicates these exemptions have been rescinded. This is not the case.
Please be advised that ATF has not rescinded any armor piercing ammunition exemption, and the
fact they are not listed in the 2014 online edition of the regulations was an error which has no
legal impact on the validity of the exemptions. The existing exemptions for armor piercing
ammunition, which apply to 5.56 mm (.223) SS 109 and M855 projectiles (identified by a green
coating on the projectile tip), and the U.S .30-06 M2AP projectile (identified by a black coating
on the projectile tip), remain in effect.
The listing of Armor Piercing Ammunition exemptions can be found in the 2005 ATF
Regulation Guide on page 166, which is posted here.
The 2014 Regulation Guide will be corrected in PDF format to include the listing of armor
piercing ammunition exemptions and posted shortly. The e-book/iBook version of the
Regulation Guide will be corrected in the near future. ATF apologizes for any confusion caused
by this publishing error.
Can anyone else verify this?
End of the story? or Pacifying the masses for the moment?
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There was, by many accounts, a publishing error last year, but that does not change the BATFE's desire to reclassify M855 this year and my guess is that will happen despite our protests.
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Yes the ban is already in place, the comment period is so people can voice their opinion about how it is to take effect. The ATF went around normal procedure to do this and unless a new Attorney General over rules it (they have the ability to create exemptions) or Congress ends the ban on "Cop Killer" (remember the debates from back in the 90's) this will stand.
Why do you keep saying it's already banned? Everything I have read so far talks about "proposed removal of exemption" of M855. I am betting all the ammo sellers are racing to get more imported before the ban takes place...
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"Publishing error"? :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
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Washington Examiner reportedthat 42 Senators and 238 House members had joined to oppose the ban.
Would like to know if our Representatives/Senators signed.
http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/52-senators-warn-of-sweeping-ammo-bans-say-2nd-amendment-at-risk/article/2561295 (http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/52-senators-warn-of-sweeping-ammo-bans-say-2nd-amendment-at-risk/article/2561295)
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Did see Fischer and Sasse's name on this.
http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/52-senators-warn-of-sweeping-ammo-bans-say-2nd-amendment-at-risk/article/2561295 (http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/52-senators-warn-of-sweeping-ammo-bans-say-2nd-amendment-at-risk/article/2561295)
Sincerely,
Senators joining Grassley on the letter include Mike Rounds (R-S.D.); John Thune (R-S.D.); Cory Gardner (R-Colo.); Tom Cotton (R-Ark.); John Hoeven (R-N.D.); Joni Ernst (R-Iowa); David Vitter (R-La); Michael Crapo (R-Idaho); Jerry Moran (R-Kan.); David Perdue (R-Ga.); James Risch (R-Idaho); John Isakson (R-Ga.); Steve Daines (R-Mont.); Dean Heller (R-Nev.); Jim Inhofe (R-Okla.); Richard Burr (R-N.C.); Roy Blunt (R-Mo.); Lindsey Graham (R-S.C.); Bill Cassidy (R-La.); John Boozman (R-Ark.); Mike Enzi (R-Wyo.); Ted Cruz (R-Texas); Thom Tillis (R-N.C.); Orrin Hatch (R-Utah); Jeff Sessions (R-Ala.); James Lankford (R-Okla.); Richard Shelby (R-Ala.); Deb Fischer (R-Neb.); Thad Cochran (R-Miss.); Shelley Capito (R-W. Va.); Pat Roberts (R-Kan.); Pat Toomey (R-Pa.); Lisa Murkowski (R-Alaska); John Cornyn (R-Texas); Ron Johnson (R-Wis.); Michael Lee (R-Utah); John Barrasso (R-Wyo.); Marco Rubio (R- Fla.); Jeff Flake (R-Ariz.); Dan Coats (R-Ind.); Bob Corker (R-Tenn.); Tim Scott (R-S.C.); Kelly Ayotte (R-N.H.); Ben Sasse (R-Neb.); Roger Wicker (R-Miss.); Mitch McConnell (R-Ky.); Lamar Alexander (R-Tenn.); Rand Paul (R-Ky.); John McCain (R-Ariz.); Rob Portman (R-Ohio); Dan Sullivan (R-Alaska); and Susan Collins (R-Maine).
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ATF HQ @ATFHQ
Follow
You spoke, we listened. @ATFHQ plans more study on the proposed AP Ammo exemption framework. See more http://ow.ly/Ka7iQ (http://ow.ly/Ka7iQ)
11:21 AM - 10 Mar 2015
http://www.atf.gov/press/releases/2015-03-021015-advisory-notice-those-commenting-armor-piercing-ammunition-exemption-framework.html (http://www.atf.gov/press/releases/2015-03-021015-advisory-notice-those-commenting-armor-piercing-ammunition-exemption-framework.html)
NOTICE TO THOSE COMMENTING ON THE ARMOR PIERCING AMMUNITION EXEMPTION FRAMEWORK
Thank you for your interest in ATF's proposed framework for determining whether certain projectiles are “primarily intended for sporting purposes” within the meaning of 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(17)(C). The informal comment period will close on Monday, March 16, 2015. ATF has already received more than 80,000 comments, which will be made publicly available as soon as practicable.
Although ATF endeavored to create a proposal that reflected a good faith interpretation of the law and balanced the interests of law enforcement, industry, and sportsmen, the vast majority of the comments received to date are critical of the framework, and include issues that deserve further study. Accordingly, ATF will not at this time seek to issue a final framework. After the close of the comment period, ATF will process the comments received, further evaluate the issues raised therein, and provide additional open and transparent process (for example, through additional proposals and opportunities for comment) before proceeding with any framework.
Translation: Oops, you caught us trying to screw gun owners yet again. We will wait til the smoke clears and try to slip this though in the near future. ::)
I say the above due to this: http://thehill.com/regulation/court-battles/235054-supreme-court-sides-with-administration-in-rulemaking-challenge (http://thehill.com/regulation/court-battles/235054-supreme-court-sides-with-administration-in-rulemaking-challenge)
The Supreme Court ruled 9-0 that federal agencies do not have to follow procedures for notifying the public and collecting comment when changing the interpretations of rules, effectively removing steps from the process that can take months and sometimes years to complete.
So, a "comment period" is no longer required for the ATF to change any of it's regulations.
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Read the articles, this was being fast tracked meaning that the comments were only going to effect how the ban is enforced not if there was going to be a ban. Now they are going to review all the comments before making a determination.
This is not over yet, you still need to get your comments in to stop the ban. And yes to Ricks closing note, they can just unilaterally act....
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I'm glad I was wrong on the timing. However, this means ATF will go through the notice and comment procedure to remove the exemption.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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CNN News article dated Mar 10, 2015.
Title: Obama administration scraps bullet ban after push back
http://www.cnn.com/2015/03/09/politics/gun-rights-group-ad-campaign-armor-piercing-bullet-ban/ (http://www.cnn.com/2015/03/09/politics/gun-rights-group-ad-campaign-armor-piercing-bullet-ban/)
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Lots of stupid people with VERY expensive ammo now .... ;)
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wonder how long it will take for prices to drop back down....????this time.
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Like Andy said, this isn't over. They haven't dropped anything, they're extending the comment and review process. They still intend to move forward with the ban. Too many people are celebrating a victory when we haven't won yet.
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Like Andy said, this isn't over. They haven't dropped anything, they're extending the comment and review process. They still intend to move forward with the ban. Too many people are celebrating a victory when we haven't won yet.
This !!
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Like Andy said, this isn't over. They haven't dropped anything, they're extending the comment and review process. They still intend to move forward with the ban. Too many people are celebrating a victory when we haven't won yet.
they don't ever give up, they chip a little each time, they are willing to wait for what they want.
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What he said ^^^^^
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Yesterday the Senate released a copy of the letter they are sending to the ATF. It appears that both
Sen. Sasse and Sen. Fischer signed the letter.
http://www.grassley.senate.gov/sites/default/files/judiciary/upload/Grassley%20letter%20to%20ATF%20regarding%20M855%20Ammunition.pdf (http://www.grassley.senate.gov/sites/default/files/judiciary/upload/Grassley%20letter%20to%20ATF%20regarding%20M855%20Ammunition.pdf)
It basically states that when LEOPA was passed it exempted ammo used for
sporting purposes and the the ATF does not have the authority to ban M855.
Don't forget to thank your Senators for doing their job.
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I wonder if some guy at the ATF had a bunch of M855 he wanted to sell on armslist.
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While many organizations are celebrating the putative victory in relation to the ATF’s announcement of earlier today that it would “not at this time seek to issue a final framework”, Firearms Industry Consulting Group (FICG), a division of Prince Law Offices, P.C., would caution our viewers and the Firearms Industry that ATF can likely, at any time, seek to move forward with a final framework without any further notice or comment.
More at: http://blog.princelaw.com/2015/03/10/celebrating-the-atfs-decision-regarding-ss109m855-ammunition-not-so-fast/ (http://blog.princelaw.com/2015/03/10/celebrating-the-atfs-decision-regarding-ss109m855-ammunition-not-so-fast/)
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One risk we have right now is people see what just happened, breathe a sigh of relief and move on. The ATF is not done and I expect we will have a short period of time then they will make another move on our ammo again.
Vigilance is never a waste of time.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ITr_9Avm3I
Reminder to keep watch.
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1 point for freedom, 0 points for tyranny. Congratulations to all those who did what they could to resist this aggression. Standing together we stopped it. And thanks especially to our senators.
To those who might think my use of the word tyranny is a little overboard I would point out that in today's world tyranny rarely comes rushing at you with a big ugly face holding s sign saying I am a tyrant; it comes instead in a thousand smiley-faced baby steps, every one as apparently mild as this one was. So every one should be treated as the jackboot of a tyrant, even if it does seem small.
As has already been pointed out, it is unlikely that Obama's ATF is through with its mischief. So we must all remember the old saying that eternal watchfulness is the price of freedom.
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ATF raises new concerns about AR-15 ammo
The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives on Thursday(3/12/15) raised new concerns about surplus military ammo used in popular AR-15 rifles and pistols just days after pulling back on a proposal to ban the ammo because it could threaten police safety.
In a Senate Appropriations Committee hearing, ATF Director B. Todd Jones said all types of the 5.56 military-style ammo used by shooters pose a threat to police as more people buy the AR-15-style pistols.
"Any 5.56 round" is "a challenge for officer safety," he said. Jones asked lawmakers to help in a review of a 1986 bill written to protect police from so-called "cop killer" rounds that largely exempted rifle ammo like the 5.56 because it has been used by target shooters, not criminals.
Read more at... http://m.washingtonexaminer.com/atf-raises-new-worries-about-ar-15-ammo/article/2561422 (http://m.washingtonexaminer.com/atf-raises-new-worries-about-ar-15-ammo/article/2561422)
If "any 5.56" is a challenge for officer safety, what about my .243 or my .45-70?
This is how they will attempt to disarm us all. Tyranny is the correct term for what is happening, and anyone that doesn't see that has their head in the sand.
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Did I hear the bell for the next round?
That didn't take long.
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Well, at least they've admitted what they're after. A total ammo ban.
Congress needs to defund the ATF. Yesterday.
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how's the NFOA comment coming?
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how's the NFOA comment coming?
Was submitted earlier this week.
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Firearms Industry Consulting Group Files Comment in Opposition to ATF’s Proposed Framework for Determining Whether Certain Projectiles are “Primarily Intended for Sporting Purposes”
As many of our viewers are aware, Firearms Industry Consulting Group, a division of Prince Law Offices, P.C., has been following ATF’s proposed framework for determining whether certain projectiles are “primarily intended for sporting purposes” within the meaning of 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(17)(C). Today, we filed our formal Comment in opposition to ATF’s proposed framework. With exhibits, it is over 330 pages. You can download a copy at https://princelaw.files.wordpress.com/2015/03/ficg-sporting-purposes-ammo-comment-final-w-exhibits.pdf (https://princelaw.files.wordpress.com/2015/03/ficg-sporting-purposes-ammo-comment-final-w-exhibits.pdf).
Read more here: http://blog.princelaw.com/2015/03/12/ficg-files-comment-in-opposition-to-atfs-proposed-framework-for-determining-whether-certain-projectiles-are-primarily-intended-for-sporting-purposes/ (http://blog.princelaw.com/2015/03/12/ficg-files-comment-in-opposition-to-atfs-proposed-framework-for-determining-whether-certain-projectiles-are-primarily-intended-for-sporting-purposes/)
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Was submitted earlier this week.
Thank you. Can we read it please?
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It has come out tonight that a group of 53 Democrat Congressmen (no names given at this point) are passing around a draft letter to the ATF to ask them to go on with the ban, and it is sounding like ban even more ammo than that. This is not over.
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The liberal cult will never stop its aggression. We can have a thousand victories where we successfully defend America from them, but as long as they have a victory every now and then in time they will win and America will lose. It's like if someone stands in front of you throwing one punch after another and you successfully block almost every one of them, they still get one through every now and then, so you eventually get beaten down and defeated. This is why a purely defensive strategy will always fail. If we want to remain free we need to take the initiative.
Patriots have taken the initiative a few times, as with getting shall issue concealed carry laws passed, and we have been very successful. This shows us what is possible when we fight back on our terms instead of just sitting back and waiting for their next attack.
The edict this whole thing is based in, the law against so-called cop-killer bullets, was fundamentally flawed from the very beginning. As most of us here know the slogan cop-killer bullet is a lie. And sporting use being a criterion for legality is a lie too; a conspicuous, verifiable lie. These lies should never have been allowed to stand, and they should not have been allowed to become law. We knew from the very beginning the purpose this edict would be put to, and that purpose was talked about. The NRA supposedly fixed a very badly-written law and then said it was ok, but they should have known better.
The Bible gives us this advice: don't answer a fool according to his folly. When we talk about sporting use as though that is what makes a certain gun or bullet ok and another one not ok we are doing that. Those who allowed themselves to be sucked into this lie were made fools of then, and if it wasn't obvious then it should be by now. All who fight to defend freedom should know better than to let the enemy set the stage, because we know their purpose, and we know the stage will be set by them to secure that purpose.
The enemy is using a strategy often called death by a thousand cuts. That strategy will work, as long as they have the initiative and all we do is respond to this or that attack. If we want to stop their aggression we need to fight back by attacking the heart of the enemy. This entire law never should have been passed and if we didn't know it then we do now, so once traitors in Washington have shown us how it will be used our best strategy is to get it repealed. I know that's unlikely with a traitor in the White House, but we are still better off taking this initiative, because that way the enemy is busy responding to us instead of attacking us. And in time, with the right Congress and President, and patriots making the truth widely known, it can be repealed. Even more important, patriots need to treat the liberal press as the propaganda machine it is; expose those liars for what they are and expose their lies. Stop playing along with their lie that they are real journalists. Until we do that, we can't do anything but lose. Slowly over time maybe, and with a victory here and there, but our fight will still be a losing one in the long run.
http://thehill.com/regulation/legislation/235531-dems-pushing-bullet-ban-legislation (http://thehill.com/regulation/legislation/235531-dems-pushing-bullet-ban-legislation)
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I went for two-fers this week, I wrote Congressman Fortenberry thanking him for signing the congressional letter from congress to the ATF objecting to the M855 ban and encouraged him to support The Protecting Second Amendment Rights Act introduced by Rep. Tom Rooney (R- Fla.) it "would prohibit the ATF or any other federal agency from issuing or enforcing any new restriction or prohibition on the manufacture, importation or sale of ammunition in the United States."
I also wrote Sen. Fischer, thanked her for signing the Senate's letter to the ATF and asked her encourage members of the Senate Appropriations Committee to respond to Mr. Jones by by pointing out to him that he is trying to solve a problem that doesn't exist and infringing on the rights of law abiding citizens in doing so.
On a brighter note Three Gun at ENGC tomorrow!! I can burn up a little of that ammo I've been hording.